RE: BTCC car vs TT bike
Discussion
Hungrymc said:
RobM77 said:
My point is that it's easy to get blinkered by lap times on their own without realising just how differently the two different types of vehicle are going about it, and it's there that the interest lies, as hinted at by this article.
Agree, and in my experience, the approach to cornering is far more stark than the top speed difference. The article explains it fairly well. Pushing a car to and beyond its cornering limits is something we all do in the course of driving a car quickly or for fun(we don't necessarily do it well, its not necessarily the quickest way round a lap). Pushing a bike beyond its cornering limits is something that only the very best do reliably, and the majority only do in the course of having an accident.... There is an accuracy and safety margin needed on a bike that is much less present in a car. And ironically, it contrasts with the perception many have about bikers being nutters... They have to be very accurate.It's worth noting that I love both and I wouldn't get into a discussion about which is quicker or best, both are great but very different.
RobM77 said:
I completely agree with all of that, apart from most drivers driving "at the limit" (ie optimum slip). Let's immediately ignore the majority of people that never drive at any appreciable slip angle, of course. However, I'd contest that the overwhelming majority of the remainder (eg the people I've instructed on track days), only ever flirt back and forth between way over optimum slip and way under it, usually at only one end of the car at a time. To hold a car at optimum slip at both front and back is something that really not many people can do, and I'd guess it's a similar percentage of bikers and car drivers. The difference with a car is you get people without any sensitivity who fling the car over optimum slip at one end or the other and then recover it, which you obviously don't get with bikers - crucially though I don't think many of them ever convert to being good racers, thus my reckoning that the percentage of drivers/riders who can balance their bike/car properly is similar. Add in downforce and 100mph+ cornering speeds with tiny optimum slip angles and you further compound the issue.
The learning curve with racing bikes is far far greater though. Witness Schumacher's attempts and subsequent neck breakage versus say Rossi in WRC. That said, I believe its about as hard to be a Schumacher, Hamilton or a Loeb as it is to be a Rossi, Marquez or Rea. I don't think the percentage of bike/car drivers who can balance their bike properly is the same at all...2 wheels will always be less forgiving than 4. SevenR said:
Great article. Love Cars and love bikes and not at all interested in the stupid argument of which is fastest or best. Incomparable.
H2R and a P1 please. That's my garage sorted.
Which is fastest isn't an argument, never has been. Which is best is, as you say, a pointless argument because they're both different and not really comparable in any meaningful way, plus it's just personal preference H2R and a P1 please. That's my garage sorted.
Nice article. JM is an absolute lad, such a talent. Whichever is fastest is not my prime concern, I'm interested in fun, and bikes deliver so much more of that than cars. I love fast cars but even the best don't come close to the sensation of enjoying even just a half decent bike on a great road. If you've never been on one and you like driving, you really owe it to yourself to try a bike out.
[quote=Löyly]Nice article. JM is an absolute lad, such a talent. Whichever is fastest is not my prime concern, I'm interested in fun, and bikes deliver so much more of that than cars. I love fast cars but even the best don't come close to the sensation of enjoying even just a half decent bike on a great road. If you've never been on one and you like driving, you really owe it to yourself to try a bike out.
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What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
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What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
I've always been more of a car guy and I'd love to have a go in a proper supercar, and would love even more to own one. I'd imagine it would be a hell of a rush. But since either is unlikely, and my little 206 doesn't exactly provide "blistering" performance, I tend to stick to a bike to get my kicks on track.
Great article.
Great article.
RobM77 said:
What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
I'm comparing a vast range of cars to bikes, including some excellent performance car, but bikes are still more fun, even if they aren't faster. RobM77 said:
What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
Have you driven something faster than a 190 mph road bike ?Edited by blade7 on Thursday 18th August 18:42
Loyly said:
RobM77 said:
What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
I'm comparing a vast range of cars to bikes, including some excellent performance car, but bikes are still more fun, even if they aren't faster.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th August 19:16
blade7 said:
RobM77 said:
What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
Have you driven something faster than a 190 mph road bike ?Edited by blade7 on Thursday 18th August 18:42
My post that you've quoted above was in direct reply to someone who was saying that bikes were more fun than all cars, which I just thought was strange from someone who I presume has only ever driven a selection of cars that happen to be a lot slower than the bikes he's ridden. That's the reason I've not said anything similar myself, because my experience isn't broad enough to make an absolute judgement like that.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th August 20:09
I should also add that, whilst I've never driven a car as fast as the motorbikes I've ridden, that is a strawman to the point I made that bikes are more fun. Even a middling commuter bike is loads of fun to ride hard. Outright and relative speed isn't intrinsic to the fun of the experience. Bikes are just more fun IMO, but if you can't ride a bike you wouldn't understand why.
[quote=Löyly]I should also add that, whilst I've never driven a car as fast as the motorbikes I've ridden, that is a strawman to the point I made that bikes are more fun. Even a middling commuter bike is loads of fun to ride hard. Outright and relative speed isn't intrinsic to the fun of the experience. Bikes are just more fun IMO, but if you can't ride a bike you wouldn't understand why.
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I think this bike v. car animosity does bikers no favours. I've had drives in my car (2016 Subaru STI) that were as absorbing as any ride on a bike on the road. Admittedly I was cornering a lot faster in the car and leaving less of a margin for error. In my car I can slide it, and yump it and its not a pants-wetting moment. On the bike, small slides are okay but big ones are properly scary or dangerous. I think on an average road bikes are more fun because you can overtake traffic, but on an empty road, I don't think that a superbike is necessarily more fun for the average to above average driver/rider than say a Caterham 620R or Ariel Atom - on a bike you're approaching the limit of grip but not going past it, whereas in a car you are feeling out that limit, and occasionally going past it when conditions permit.
And RobM77, I think that any road car except the quickest hypercars (P1, LaF, 918), a few very quick classic cars, and the quickest Caterhams and Ariels will not be as much fun on the road as an average superbike. I think on a track its a different story as the fun of a car is in going over the limit of grip (relative to a bike that is).
MotoGP and F1 racers who have had the chance to try each others' machines (Schumacher, Rossi, Troy Corser) say that in general the bike is more thrilling.
Not trying to start an argument about which are more fun or faster - the former is a completely subjective judgement, and the latter is fundamentally irrelevant on most roads.
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I think this bike v. car animosity does bikers no favours. I've had drives in my car (2016 Subaru STI) that were as absorbing as any ride on a bike on the road. Admittedly I was cornering a lot faster in the car and leaving less of a margin for error. In my car I can slide it, and yump it and its not a pants-wetting moment. On the bike, small slides are okay but big ones are properly scary or dangerous. I think on an average road bikes are more fun because you can overtake traffic, but on an empty road, I don't think that a superbike is necessarily more fun for the average to above average driver/rider than say a Caterham 620R or Ariel Atom - on a bike you're approaching the limit of grip but not going past it, whereas in a car you are feeling out that limit, and occasionally going past it when conditions permit.
And RobM77, I think that any road car except the quickest hypercars (P1, LaF, 918), a few very quick classic cars, and the quickest Caterhams and Ariels will not be as much fun on the road as an average superbike. I think on a track its a different story as the fun of a car is in going over the limit of grip (relative to a bike that is).
MotoGP and F1 racers who have had the chance to try each others' machines (Schumacher, Rossi, Troy Corser) say that in general the bike is more thrilling.
Not trying to start an argument about which are more fun or faster - the former is a completely subjective judgement, and the latter is fundamentally irrelevant on most roads.
It's easier to tap into the enjoyment factor on a bike due to the performance available & how easy it is to access that envelope.
As an example getting your knee down while sweeping through a roundabout at less than 30mph on your way to work.
In general sports road bikes that you buy out of the showroom will dispense most things up to an Aventador with ease whether the rider has the skill set to do so is a different matter on the road as long as you're having fun does it matter
As an example getting your knee down while sweeping through a roundabout at less than 30mph on your way to work.
In general sports road bikes that you buy out of the showroom will dispense most things up to an Aventador with ease whether the rider has the skill set to do so is a different matter on the road as long as you're having fun does it matter
RobM77 said:
blade7 said:
RobM77 said:
What's the fastest car you've driven though? Have you tried something faster than a bike? If you haven't that's a bit like riding a 50cc and saying that bikes are boring
Have you driven something faster than a 190 mph road bike ?I have the utmost respect for anyone that can hustle a powerful bike around like these guys.
And John M is one of the most relaxed riders you will see. His smooth flowing style at the TT is just awesome to watch.
There can never be an argument on which is better and or faster. Bike or car. It's comparing apples with oranges.
But from a personal perspective on the feeling derived from both, I think you would have to say the thrill from going fairly quickly on a bike far out weighs that of being cosseted inside a car. Apart from the power to weight factor and getting that out through just one wheel. It's the vulnerability side of things that awakens your senses. And as said in the article it has to be you controlling the bike and not the other way around. Otherwise it will end in tears , if you're even fortunate enough to be still producing them.
And John M is one of the most relaxed riders you will see. His smooth flowing style at the TT is just awesome to watch.
There can never be an argument on which is better and or faster. Bike or car. It's comparing apples with oranges.
But from a personal perspective on the feeling derived from both, I think you would have to say the thrill from going fairly quickly on a bike far out weighs that of being cosseted inside a car. Apart from the power to weight factor and getting that out through just one wheel. It's the vulnerability side of things that awakens your senses. And as said in the article it has to be you controlling the bike and not the other way around. Otherwise it will end in tears , if you're even fortunate enough to be still producing them.
soad said:
Why no video?
Here's a video I put together of the event.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSupsXwa5W4
John.
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