RE: No-ssan GT-R
Discussion
The car looks like a pig IMO...it is a fantastic technology showcase but now they want to stop you doing any mods to your new car (especially the skyline) this is ridiculous.
What is Nissan playing at? the skyline gt-r is dead and they have brought out some stupidly fast idiot car...
Buy a porsche 997 Turbo
What is Nissan playing at? the skyline gt-r is dead and they have brought out some stupidly fast idiot car...
Buy a porsche 997 Turbo
I dont belive this at all. Car manufacturers worry alot about cost. There is no way on earth they are making special sensors or installing something like RFID tags to all their parts so they can't be changed. No doubt wheels cant be changed due to some sort of wheel sensor, typre pressure ABS, TC etc something that specifically has to worry about the wheels. Simillarly the Exhaust, it probably affects another system EGR, turbo. All his means is tuners have to raise they game and provide the bits that the nissan needs rather than making generic tat that they hope fits different applications. This is an ineviatble side effect of complicated systems being installed to cars.
mickken said:
All a load of old tosh......
(how great would it be if there was a worldwide agreement not to buy this car and Nissan had 1000's sitting there unsold. It'll never happen, but would love to be in the Board Room to see that one!!)
Back to reality though, if most of what has been said there is true.....it's put me off buying one.
Agreed, if true it would put me off buying one too. It has kept the car in the news though...objective achieved I guess(how great would it be if there was a worldwide agreement not to buy this car and Nissan had 1000's sitting there unsold. It'll never happen, but would love to be in the Board Room to see that one!!)
Back to reality though, if most of what has been said there is true.....it's put me off buying one.
Seems a damn stupid thing that being the case. The whole reason that the Skyline is so successful (or at least, makes petrolheads want one) is because of the tuning ability. A whole culture has grown up around the "legendary" Skyline along with a heap of 3rd party products.
I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
Chris_R said:
Seems a damn stupid thing that being the case. The whole reason that the Skyline is so successful (or at least, makes petrolheads want one) is because of the tuning ability. A whole culture has grown up around the "legendary" Skyline along with a heap of 3rd party products.
I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
A Skyline is Nissan's equivalent of a Vauxhall Omega. The only "legendary" one was the GT-R.I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
I'm sure Nissan have their reasons (particularly for the Japanese-market speed limiter and so on).
Chris_R said:
Seems a damn stupid thing that being the case. The whole reason that the Skyline is so successful (or at least, makes petrolheads want one) is because of the tuning ability. A whole culture has grown up around the "legendary" Skyline along with a heap of 3rd party products.
I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
If true, what they stand to gain is a lot of money from official Nismo add-ons to be sold at extortionate prices later and no trackday 'abuse' of the car therefore resulting in fewer warranty claims.I always though that the RB engine was a triumph of over engineering in that it can take these mods. I don't see what they are gaining by doing this at all?
Needless to say all of this technology will be capable of inventing its own faults which only a main dealer will be able to fix, no doubt at a price comparable to that of launching a spy satellite, even though it only requires someone to attach a laptop to the ECU and download a command to 'stop pretending there's a fault'.
All they need to do now is re-name it the 'Gordon Brown' and they're there! If this is where vehicle technology is heading I'll be heading the other way, thanks.
All they need to do now is re-name it the 'Gordon Brown' and they're there! If this is where vehicle technology is heading I'll be heading the other way, thanks.
MOOOO.co.uk said:
The car looks like a pig IMO...it is a fantastic technology showcase but now they want to stop you doing any mods to your new car (especially the skyline) this is ridiculous.
What is Nissan playing at? the skyline gt-r is dead and they have brought out some stupidly fast idiot car...
Buy a porsche 997 Turbo
...talking about an idiot, why pay more for 977 when you get a better car for 60k?What is Nissan playing at? the skyline gt-r is dead and they have brought out some stupidly fast idiot car...
Buy a porsche 997 Turbo
Fast Jap cars are victims of their own superior engineering. They have such image that usually people (enthusiasts) after performance buy them. Porsche on the other hand - there are PHers/enthusiasts that buy them, but the brand is also open to people that don't even know how to tie their shoe laces.
1.They are doing the right thing for the company.
a. because it is relatively easier and more reliable to get more power out of these engines than out of other european engines. Here you can get 50% more without spending that much £ and not reducing the reliability greatly because most of the times the engines is still okay for increased temperatures and pressures, and transmission is ok for extra torque...but there are still limits. As mentioned above, this attracts many good enthusiast tuners that know what they are doing. However, just like those people who cannot tie their shoe laces and buy porsche, many "opportunists" (that want the power but don't know how to get it reliably) also buy an older fast jap car.
b. I've heard too many "I've done this to my car, and now it strangely it does this". Word gets around so people start thinking that the car has fundamental reliability issues...where as the reason why the "big ends keep going" is because you are stupid enough to do cheap mods to increase boost but then not spend money on other bits like colder spark plugs, pumps and intercoolers.
As someone has already mentioned, the mods will get to the market, and people will still be able to tune their cars. All Nissan is trying to do is to prevent those that I call "opportunists" that don't have the knowledge or the money to do it properly and give Nissan bad reliability name. Go on Autotrader, and have a look how many cheap Skylines there are, I can guaranty that 90% of them have not been well maintained, they have been bought and thrashed about and look knackered, and this is what they are trying to stop.
Or perhaps it is a ploy to make a future NISMO version more attractive?
I would bet that Nissan dealers will start offering factory approved NISMO aftermarket parts.
The tuning market for this car will be HUGE. So it makes sense for Nissan to keep as much of that market to themselves.
It also makes sense to leave the proper tuning to the experts. The people who can manage to get 1000bhp from an R34 will still be doing it with this - Nissan wont mind because those boys will do it right, and boost the skyline image.
Its the barryboy fitting max-power air filters on their mums drive they want to avoid.
Another point to consider is image. The current R34 skyline is very much "street racer". If Nissan are gunning after the porsche 911 buyer (far bigger market) then they will want to avoid having tuners associated with this car. How many 911s do you see floating around Mcdonalds car park on a saturday night, mixing it with the other chav boxes?
I would bet that Nissan dealers will start offering factory approved NISMO aftermarket parts.
The tuning market for this car will be HUGE. So it makes sense for Nissan to keep as much of that market to themselves.
It also makes sense to leave the proper tuning to the experts. The people who can manage to get 1000bhp from an R34 will still be doing it with this - Nissan wont mind because those boys will do it right, and boost the skyline image.
Its the barryboy fitting max-power air filters on their mums drive they want to avoid.
Another point to consider is image. The current R34 skyline is very much "street racer". If Nissan are gunning after the porsche 911 buyer (far bigger market) then they will want to avoid having tuners associated with this car. How many 911s do you see floating around Mcdonalds car park on a saturday night, mixing it with the other chav boxes?
Title should be: "You can't with a Nissan't" :-)
Seriously, if you read the GT-R Owners Club forums you'd have known about this weeks if not months ago. Nissan have had to jump through hoops to get approval from the Japanese government to sell a car with more than the 'gentleman's agreement' of 286 BHP, almost *double* in fact...
Don't forget BMW voiding people's warranty on the E36 M3 and CSL if they went on track (problems with engines, diffs and CSL wheels as I remember), together with Porsche's famous Ceramic brake disc warranty aversion on the GT3 ('been on track sir? ECU says you've done more than 100mph? No warranty for you I'm afraid...')
I don't see Nissan's statement about warranties as being unusual in this day and age, not that I LIKE it of course.
What I *DO* have more of an issue with is Nissan's 5,000Km (approx. 3,000 mile) service interval, and the fact that everything is electronic and tied together means that it's going to be difficult, time-consuming and expensive to fix anything that goes wrong. Just to prove that point here's a link to the official parts prices list from Nissan:
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/89195-r35-gtr-or...
As you can see, at today's exchange rate a replacement engine is £15,254 (bare engine, no ancillaries, no turbos etc.), a gearbox £7484, a front brake disc (single) £359, a front brake pad (single) £430!
All those prices without shipping or Duty (or Duty on the shipping) or VAT (or VAT on the Duty and the shipping). Oh, and without labour of course... (and VAT on the labour)
Approved Run-Flats are reputed to be around £450 per corner too...
First service (2000Km), which I understand is basically a check-over and oil-change, in Japan is confirmed to be 145,000Yen (£691 at today's exchange rate) too...
I believe this is in Ferrari/Lamborghini main dealer territory (though never having owned either I can't vouch for this), certainly it's more expensive that Porsche prices that I've paid in the past.
Oh, and to people that say: 'oh, it'll be just like the iPhone, people will crack them' - I was one of the first people in the UK to crack an iPhone, and every firmware release that has come out since 1.0.0 has made it *significantly* more difficult to mod, to the point where I'm still on 1.0.2 and the current 1.1.3 firmware is *still* uncracked.
I'm sure that Nissan will make updating your ECU firmware a part of the service regime and require it to have a valid warranty. Furthermore unlike the Open-Source Mac modding community, most automotive tuners don't have access to firmware crypto specialists, so cracking the V35 ECU will become progressively more difficult and costly for tuners, especially as the ECU controls near *everything* in the new GT-R...
I hate being pessimistic, but I think the days of carefree GT-R tuning are over. The whole GPS in the ECU thing just sends a cold shiver down my spine
Seriously, if you read the GT-R Owners Club forums you'd have known about this weeks if not months ago. Nissan have had to jump through hoops to get approval from the Japanese government to sell a car with more than the 'gentleman's agreement' of 286 BHP, almost *double* in fact...
Don't forget BMW voiding people's warranty on the E36 M3 and CSL if they went on track (problems with engines, diffs and CSL wheels as I remember), together with Porsche's famous Ceramic brake disc warranty aversion on the GT3 ('been on track sir? ECU says you've done more than 100mph? No warranty for you I'm afraid...')
I don't see Nissan's statement about warranties as being unusual in this day and age, not that I LIKE it of course.
What I *DO* have more of an issue with is Nissan's 5,000Km (approx. 3,000 mile) service interval, and the fact that everything is electronic and tied together means that it's going to be difficult, time-consuming and expensive to fix anything that goes wrong. Just to prove that point here's a link to the official parts prices list from Nissan:
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/89195-r35-gtr-or...
As you can see, at today's exchange rate a replacement engine is £15,254 (bare engine, no ancillaries, no turbos etc.), a gearbox £7484, a front brake disc (single) £359, a front brake pad (single) £430!
All those prices without shipping or Duty (or Duty on the shipping) or VAT (or VAT on the Duty and the shipping). Oh, and without labour of course... (and VAT on the labour)
Approved Run-Flats are reputed to be around £450 per corner too...
First service (2000Km), which I understand is basically a check-over and oil-change, in Japan is confirmed to be 145,000Yen (£691 at today's exchange rate) too...
I believe this is in Ferrari/Lamborghini main dealer territory (though never having owned either I can't vouch for this), certainly it's more expensive that Porsche prices that I've paid in the past.
Oh, and to people that say: 'oh, it'll be just like the iPhone, people will crack them' - I was one of the first people in the UK to crack an iPhone, and every firmware release that has come out since 1.0.0 has made it *significantly* more difficult to mod, to the point where I'm still on 1.0.2 and the current 1.1.3 firmware is *still* uncracked.
I'm sure that Nissan will make updating your ECU firmware a part of the service regime and require it to have a valid warranty. Furthermore unlike the Open-Source Mac modding community, most automotive tuners don't have access to firmware crypto specialists, so cracking the V35 ECU will become progressively more difficult and costly for tuners, especially as the ECU controls near *everything* in the new GT-R...
I hate being pessimistic, but I think the days of carefree GT-R tuning are over. The whole GPS in the ECU thing just sends a cold shiver down my spine
Edited by neon_fox on Friday 8th February 13:19
Good thing I cant afford one, nor do I want one 
Its all a bit silly really as it wont take long before someone has found away round modifying the inlet/outlet, changing the ECU over and not caring a moneys fart about the warranty to go hooning around other tracks!
Nissan are now saying "you can have a performance car, but you cant use it"
Its all a bit silly really as it wont take long before someone has found away round modifying the inlet/outlet, changing the ECU over and not caring a moneys fart about the warranty to go hooning around other tracks!
Nissan are now saying "you can have a performance car, but you cant use it"
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