RE: Chris Harris video: Toyota GT 86
Discussion
otolith said:
kambites said:
jon- said:
and the S2000 isn't what you'd call quick.
It's what the vast majority of people, myself included, would call quick. It has roughly the same sort of power to weight ratio as an Audi TT 2.0 TFSI, RX-8, Scirocco TSI, entry level Elise, Civic Type-R, Focus ST, Clio 200, Golf GTi, etc. If that's not quick enough, what should it be benchmarked against? Do people expect Cayman pace for 25k? (if they do, that heavily discounted 370Z awaits them, but not much else).
"It's not in your face quick when the average VAG diesel can keep up until the higher speeds."
Fittster said:
Maybe you should start comparing like with like.
MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
Comparing bhp/tonne with a diesel Golf hatchback doesn't seem quite that fair and the 944 figures only go to highlight how behind the times this car is...MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
..if you really MUST have a brand new car that weighs less than 1200kg and you REALLY like putting your shopping bags on back seats...then this is definitely the car for you...just don't plan on eating too many pies or all those good intentions will go to waste
Fittster said:
Aging sports cars will give you better looking power / price figures but you aren't really comparing like with like.
This ^Better looking visually too. There's absolutely no way that the S2000s elegant low bonnet could be designed into a car built today because of passenger impact regs. Which is precisely why the S2000 is not a new car you can buy, and why the comparison is even more of a red herring against the GT 86.
rajkohli81 said:
Comparing bhp/tonne with a diesel Golf hatchback doesn't seem quite that fair and the 944 figures only go to highlight how behind the times this car is...
..if you really MUST have a brand new car that weighs less than 1200kg and you REALLY like putting your shopping bags on back seats...then this is definitely the car for you...just don't plan on eating too many pies or all those good intentions will go to waste
By saying 'behind the times', clearly you like the power/grips wars that have made most fast cars as they are today. Fine, you are free to like them (and buy them secondhand), but stop being wilfully thick about why the GT86 has been very deliberately designed the way it has. ..if you really MUST have a brand new car that weighs less than 1200kg and you REALLY like putting your shopping bags on back seats...then this is definitely the car for you...just don't plan on eating too many pies or all those good intentions will go to waste
If you can't understand the car, it simply doesn't matter; you are not its target market. There is demand for this car whether you like it or not (several PHers have mentioned they have one on order and if you were to order one today you would be lucky to take delivery in 2012 - seems like OK demand to me).
rajkohli81 said:
Fittster said:
Maybe you should start comparing like with like.
MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
Comparing bhp/tonne with a diesel Golf hatchback doesn't seem quite that fair and the 944 figures only go to highlight how behind the times this car is...MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
..if you really MUST have a brand new car that weighs less than 1200kg and you REALLY like putting your shopping bags on back seats...then this is definitely the car for you...just don't plan on eating too many pies or all those good intentions will go to waste
A VAG with a GT badge is a performance car to a lot of people, especially if they are considering the impact of emissions on thier tax bill. Now that might not be the PH ethos but it's certainly is a catergory where Toyota need to take sales from.
The issue you like to duck is that if you have 25K for a new car, want a coupe, RWD, low running costs there aren't many realistic alternatives. There are a number of hot hatches, if you give up on rear seats and roof there's the MX-5, pay 20% more and accept higher running costs you can have a 370Z.
The only rival that I can really compare the GT 86 with is a BMW 1 series 120D M Sport.
Fittster said:
The issue you like to duck is that if you have 25K for a new car, want a coupe, RWD, low running costs there aren't many realistic alternatives. There are a number of hot hatches, if you give up on rear seats and roof there's the MX-5, pay 20% more and accept higher running costs you can have a 370Z.
The only rival that I can really compare the GT 86 with is a BMW 1 series 120D M Sport.
Without wishing to spend my entire afternoon endlessly quoting Fittster, that's the truth of the matter, right there. The only rival that I can really compare the GT 86 with is a BMW 1 series 120D M Sport.
It will be extremely interesting to see what sort of lease and insurance costs start emerging on this car, because if they can get the ownership costs right then I think it has the potential to be a big sales success. The "not too powerful not too polluting from a major manufacturer new car with enthusiast appeal for under £25k" has got to be hitting a sales sweet spot for all sorts of reasons.
Fittster said:
otolith said:
kambites said:
jon- said:
and the S2000 isn't what you'd call quick.
It's what the vast majority of people, myself included, would call quick. It has roughly the same sort of power to weight ratio as an Audi TT 2.0 TFSI, RX-8, Scirocco TSI, entry level Elise, Civic Type-R, Focus ST, Clio 200, Golf GTi, etc. If that's not quick enough, what should it be benchmarked against? Do people expect Cayman pace for 25k? (if they do, that heavily discounted 370Z awaits them, but not much else).
"It's not in your face quick when the average VAG diesel can keep up until the higher speeds."
Ok, I take the point everyone is making and that I was wrong (the first time anyone has admitted that on PH?!) An entry level coupe isn't going to feel 400bhp fast, however on a serious note, a friend of mine who owned a 130bhp 1.9 A3 (with remap naturally) once drove my old 350z - his first high power sports car to boot. Once he got back I asked him what he thought. He said it felt much slower than he expected.
I would assume Toyota will be building this convince more than the odd hot hatch buyer to move across (and lets face it, the latest breed of hot hatches are probably ahead of this in terms of power delivery.) I just think the masses are going to find it a bit "meh".
kambites said:
And adversely effect handling, assuming they're heavier.
Indeed, pretty much everything is a compromise.However - I like to drive on track and having brakes that don't last would ruin it for me - so I'd want to upgrade. It could be that decent pads and fluid would do the job, or maybe new discs would be needed too.
jon- said:
I would assume Toyota will be building this convince more than the odd hot hatch buyer to move across (and lets face it, the latest breed of hot hatches are probably ahead of this in terms of power delivery.) I just think the masses are going to find it a bit "meh".
It's never going to compete for "kick in the back" with the current generation of turbocharged hot hatches, so anyone who values that isn't going to want it. Whether many people have got so conditioned by turbochargers that they can't get the hang of having to rev an engine again, remains to be seen .Fittster said:
Buy a 944, drive it into a tree. Then you'll have an understanding on one significant aspect of car design that has progressed in the last 20 years.
A VAG with a GT badge is a performance car to a lot of people, especially if they are considering the impact of emissions on thier tax bill. Now that might not be the PH ethos but it's certainly is a catergory where Toyota need to take sales from.
The issue you like to duck is that if you have 25K for a new car, want a coupe, RWD, low running costs there aren't many realistic alternatives. There are a number of hot hatches, if you give up on rear seats and roof there's the MX-5, pay 20% more and accept higher running costs you can have a 370Z.
The only rival that I can really compare the GT 86 with is a BMW 1 series 120D M Sport.
Not ducking any issues..we've already established that you can source a brand new 370Z for the same price as an 86... and if Toyota are planning on taking sales on efficiency, the 86 falls further...A VAG with a GT badge is a performance car to a lot of people, especially if they are considering the impact of emissions on thier tax bill. Now that might not be the PH ethos but it's certainly is a catergory where Toyota need to take sales from.
The issue you like to duck is that if you have 25K for a new car, want a coupe, RWD, low running costs there aren't many realistic alternatives. There are a number of hot hatches, if you give up on rear seats and roof there's the MX-5, pay 20% more and accept higher running costs you can have a 370Z.
The only rival that I can really compare the GT 86 with is a BMW 1 series 120D M Sport.
If you really must compare against 1 series coupe, company tax is a damn sight higher on 160g 86 than 124g/134g (120d/123d)...These cars are based on a 2004 model, the new shape due Q4 2012...will blitz it further. And strictly speaking, you've already 'given up on rear seats' when opting for the Toyota in the first place.
Fittster said:
jon- said:
S2000 239bhp @ 1250kg = 191bhp / ton
and the S2000 isn't what you'd call quick.
In 2005 the S2000 cost 26K, adjusted for inflation that 31K today. If your argument is that a car that costs almost 25% more has a better power to weight ratio you hava a point.and the S2000 isn't what you'd call quick.
The only sensible comparison to the GT86 are current hot hatches, Coupes based on hatch back platforms and to some extent the MX-5.
Aging sports cars will give you better looking power / price figures but you aren't really comparing like with like.
jon- said:
And that's a mighty fine benchmark too
Ok, I take the point everyone is making and that I was wrong (the first time anyone has admitted that on PH?!) An entry level coupe isn't going to feel 400bhp fast, however on a serious note, a friend of mine who owned a 130bhp 1.9 A3 (with remap naturally) once drove my old 350z - his first high power sports car to boot. Once he got back I asked him what he thought. He said it felt much slower than he expected.
I would assume Toyota will be building this convince more than the odd hot hatch buyer to move across (and lets face it, the latest breed of hot hatches are probably ahead of this in terms of power delivery.) I just think the masses are going to find it a bit "meh".
The masses don't get a lot of niche cars but hopefully there is still enough of a minority to support them. Anyone who enjoys and is used to the performance characteristics of a modern turbo diesel (e.g. 50mph - 80mph shove) is unlikely to come away from a test drive of a Lotus Elise feeling particularly impressed. That doesn't mean the Lotus is a bad car, although the sales figures don't seem to show there are many people who appreciate what the Lotus offers and can afford to buy it. Hopefully the greater practicality of the Toyta will tempt enough buyers.Ok, I take the point everyone is making and that I was wrong (the first time anyone has admitted that on PH?!) An entry level coupe isn't going to feel 400bhp fast, however on a serious note, a friend of mine who owned a 130bhp 1.9 A3 (with remap naturally) once drove my old 350z - his first high power sports car to boot. Once he got back I asked him what he thought. He said it felt much slower than he expected.
I would assume Toyota will be building this convince more than the odd hot hatch buyer to move across (and lets face it, the latest breed of hot hatches are probably ahead of this in terms of power delivery.) I just think the masses are going to find it a bit "meh".
Expoliting handling / balance takes a far greater level of skill than straight line performance and it's perfectly fine not to be into that. I certainly don't have the abilities to replicate the control Chris Harris demonstrates but I hope this car provides more interesting charateristics than the hot hatches in the same price band.
It would be nice to be in a position where you can run a powerful diesel barge and a more tactile weekend car but for those who are limited to a single car the Toyota will hopefully be a reasonable compromise.
otolith said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
and the nissan 370z as it can be bought new for 25-26k
And those who don't get the appeal of the GT 86 can buy one of those, and everyone is happy!Makes me wonder why anyone buys a TT or 1-series when they can have a 370Z for that...
I am getting sooooo fed up with watching this car go sideways all the time, because it can? why FFS. The majoirty of those sold will be driven on normal roads by people who want a different type and look to their car.
No body drives like this unless they want to end up in A&E and then prison.
Its not the only RWD on sale, so test it the same way you would all the rest. It smacks to me of that it aint very fast, it aint very practical, it aint very pretty but it can do this in a B&Q car park, and i think its crap if thats all you can say about a car that has been in the offing for years.
No body drives like this unless they want to end up in A&E and then prison.
Its not the only RWD on sale, so test it the same way you would all the rest. It smacks to me of that it aint very fast, it aint very practical, it aint very pretty but it can do this in a B&Q car park, and i think its crap if thats all you can say about a car that has been in the offing for years.
redgriff500 said:
otolith said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
and the nissan 370z as it can be bought new for 25-26k
And those who don't get the appeal of the GT 86 can buy one of those, and everyone is happy!Makes me wonder why anyone buys a TT or 1-series when they can have a 370Z for that...
Dave Hedgehog said:
and the nissan 370z as it can be bought new for 25-26k
The Nissan has a bigger more powerful engine so it's likely to use more fuel, it's greater performance levels will probably result in higher insurance, it's likely to be in a higher tax band, and bigger wheels mean more expensive tyres.The low price you are quoting is relying on discounts, who knows what if any discount will be available on the Toyota.
The fact that Nissan have to slash 5K off the asking price doesn't suggest the residuals of the 370Z will be all that great.
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