RE: PH Blog: the new driving
Discussion
Nail on the head with this article.
I'm off to dig out my twitter details and tw@t this article to the car manufacturers. Please join me. Although I expect it won't help as it will be read by their marketing department
Unfortunately most people just use a car to get from A to B and want to look and feel good doing it. Few want a car for pure entertainment, so the masses win
I'm off to dig out my twitter details and tw@t this article to the car manufacturers. Please join me. Although I expect it won't help as it will be read by their marketing department
Unfortunately most people just use a car to get from A to B and want to look and feel good doing it. Few want a car for pure entertainment, so the masses win
Edited by robinandcamera on Wednesday 14th November 21:55
The reality is there is in relative terms a small percentage of motorists left who still remember what it was like to actually drive your car yourself. Maybe people have just become numb to this. Even my own business partner who has owned some nice exotica over the years seems to have fallen fowl of this phenomina. A few years he bought a Nissan Note for his missus and believed it was a great car. He much prefers his Audi Q5 2 litre diesel which he believes is a really great car.
It's like everyone has taken some sort of pill that has numbed there senses. Jese this man used to adore his LP400S Countach. Whether you consider that a good car or not you have to admit that you had to actually drive it yourself. No power steering, crap brakes, poor visibility but hey it was an event to drive.
Personally I really cannot think of one new car I would want to own. I'll stick with my old analogue stuff that I enjoy driving.
Just to add, why are headlights and rear lights so huge. I'm expecting some day soon the entire front and rear wings on a car will just be the lamp assemblies. Cheaper than metal I guess and the rediculous rear light intencity, E class springs to mind. It burns your retinas.
It's like everyone has taken some sort of pill that has numbed there senses. Jese this man used to adore his LP400S Countach. Whether you consider that a good car or not you have to admit that you had to actually drive it yourself. No power steering, crap brakes, poor visibility but hey it was an event to drive.
Personally I really cannot think of one new car I would want to own. I'll stick with my old analogue stuff that I enjoy driving.
Just to add, why are headlights and rear lights so huge. I'm expecting some day soon the entire front and rear wings on a car will just be the lamp assemblies. Cheaper than metal I guess and the rediculous rear light intencity, E class springs to mind. It burns your retinas.
robinandcamera said:
Unfortunately most people just use a car to get from A to B and want to look and feel good doing it.
[/footnote]
Sounds like a contradiction. If you want some A to B device why would you care how you look and feel?[/footnote]
robinandcamera said:
Few want a car for pure entertainment, so the masses win
The masses are being mindf@cked into believing there is no alternative other than bland woollyness and copies of bland woollyness. Anybody buying something else is peer-pressured into thinking they did something unspeakably wrong.Without fail, after Numbmobile #7 is launched the press goes on about how bad Numbmobile #6 was and how #7 is really much more exciting.
Face it, journo's live by the grace of car marketing departments.
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. (...) No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide.
A LSD is device that increases traction, not reduce it so its absence would be a help if anything.But if you wanted deliberately to overcome grip in a low grip situation, it helps to have drive to both tyres.
Why do I get the feeling that even responding to this post is the beginning of the hiding to nowhere?
Cheib said:
I think they do. Trouble is they develop the cars with say 18" wheels on it like they did with the E46 M3.....the marketing department then insists on 19" being an option which most people specified.
M cars are a bit different though...they probably should be able to do what journo's like doing in vid's.
The marketing department would say that people will buy these if we offer 19" wheels as an option. The accountants say, we can make more money out of people if they buy the 19" wheel option. The 19" wheel option is approved. People buy them. Who is to blame for that? M cars are a bit different though...they probably should be able to do what journo's like doing in vid's.
sisu said:
FFS this is like some automotive version of Buzzfeed - linking everything to the 90's
Then everyone crying about why things are this way? Pretty much an Automotive version of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ysyZF-DZFY
That video applies to about half of the threads on this forum. Then everyone crying about why things are this way? Pretty much an Automotive version of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ysyZF-DZFY
This is why it is very important to recalibrate your backside by driving something old once in a while.
We have a manufacturers car scheme at work and I have ended up arguing with them to supply me with a car that doesn't have stupidly stiff suspension and massive wheels.
Like someone said it IS the marketing bods that decide cars must have rock hard suspension and elastic band tyres. They do this because cars look good on the forecourt at reselling time, after I've handed it back to them with a few miles on it in a few months.
Not all engineers that work in the car industy have a mindset disimilar to Chris's. I am one of those, I'm not such an old git yet & yes it is very frustrating to work there at times.
Good point well made Chris. I have been thinking the same thing for a long time now.
We have a manufacturers car scheme at work and I have ended up arguing with them to supply me with a car that doesn't have stupidly stiff suspension and massive wheels.
Like someone said it IS the marketing bods that decide cars must have rock hard suspension and elastic band tyres. They do this because cars look good on the forecourt at reselling time, after I've handed it back to them with a few miles on it in a few months.
Not all engineers that work in the car industy have a mindset disimilar to Chris's. I am one of those, I'm not such an old git yet & yes it is very frustrating to work there at times.
Good point well made Chris. I have been thinking the same thing for a long time now.
Into the equation though has to be the huge increase in track days and track day cars.
Plus the fact that road driving is more crowded now than ever.
I too prefer the old school connectedness but i dont see it coming back for primary cars. I do think there'll be a growth in weekend cars and track day specials. There is some hope. Good luck to the GT86 tho
Plus the fact that road driving is more crowded now than ever.
I too prefer the old school connectedness but i dont see it coming back for primary cars. I do think there'll be a growth in weekend cars and track day specials. There is some hope. Good luck to the GT86 tho
What an interesting blog, I think it’s an accurate reflection of what’s happening in the industry, not just for manufacturers but for the media too. Essentially the gap between enthusiasts and the customer base is widening.
Car manufacturers are a business. They need to sell cars to make a profit. It is a highly competitive consumer driven market, like it or not sports cars aren't aimed squarely at the enthusiast as they are a minority, and they’re getting smaller. There’s a lot of talk in this thread about how customers do what marketing types tell them, and that it’s all their fault, or even what journalists tell them. This is nonsense. The customer in general makes an informed choice; the fact is they won’t choose what the enthusiast would as their priorities are completely different.
As the world changes quickly with modern technology, and the ability or availability of enthusiast driving becomes smaller and smaller because of congested roads, then the automotive society and culture slowly shift. These days a car is a reflection of the person, brand and image are more important, they need to fit in with the customer’s lifestyle, provide secure transport. Actual attribute performance matters less and less in modern driving, technology connectivity and the projection of one’s image by the car they drive are far more important.
I also think, to some extent, this is reflected in automotive media. Magazines have a history of appealing to the enthusiast with a heavy bias towards attribute performance. But as this becomes less and less relevant to the customer then they simply won’t use the media to inform their choices, and stop buying magazines. I read a Ford B-Max review yesterday which for half of the review talked about crisp steering, enjoyable handling, body control and the ‘well worth it’ sacrifice in ride comfort. This review couldn’t have been any more irrelevant to the customer.
The media is no different to the manufacturer. They are a business; they need to sell magazines or advertising space on a web page. They are here only to serve their readers to make money, not just for the fun of it. Produce something the reader isn’t interested in and you stop making money. I think this explains why the media is splitting between supplying quick, accessible information about cars and niche, interesting stories and videos about cars. The traditional middle ground is shrinking.
Overall Chris is right, like it or not what satisfies him, as an enthusiast, is being lost. But to lay blame at marketing types or a lack of enthusiasts is wrong, it’s not that simple. Car manufacturers are just trying to sell cars and if the modern car is what sells then so be it.
The only exception to this is modern ride quality, it’s simply unnecessary. But I do think that we are going to see a shift back towards more comfortable cars as people go about their business in a slower, more economical way.
It will be interesting to see how the GT86 fairs as this is an honourable attempt by a manufacturer to follow the desire of the enthusiast. But its success will be judged by one thing alone, how many they sell.
Car manufacturers are a business. They need to sell cars to make a profit. It is a highly competitive consumer driven market, like it or not sports cars aren't aimed squarely at the enthusiast as they are a minority, and they’re getting smaller. There’s a lot of talk in this thread about how customers do what marketing types tell them, and that it’s all their fault, or even what journalists tell them. This is nonsense. The customer in general makes an informed choice; the fact is they won’t choose what the enthusiast would as their priorities are completely different.
As the world changes quickly with modern technology, and the ability or availability of enthusiast driving becomes smaller and smaller because of congested roads, then the automotive society and culture slowly shift. These days a car is a reflection of the person, brand and image are more important, they need to fit in with the customer’s lifestyle, provide secure transport. Actual attribute performance matters less and less in modern driving, technology connectivity and the projection of one’s image by the car they drive are far more important.
I also think, to some extent, this is reflected in automotive media. Magazines have a history of appealing to the enthusiast with a heavy bias towards attribute performance. But as this becomes less and less relevant to the customer then they simply won’t use the media to inform their choices, and stop buying magazines. I read a Ford B-Max review yesterday which for half of the review talked about crisp steering, enjoyable handling, body control and the ‘well worth it’ sacrifice in ride comfort. This review couldn’t have been any more irrelevant to the customer.
The media is no different to the manufacturer. They are a business; they need to sell magazines or advertising space on a web page. They are here only to serve their readers to make money, not just for the fun of it. Produce something the reader isn’t interested in and you stop making money. I think this explains why the media is splitting between supplying quick, accessible information about cars and niche, interesting stories and videos about cars. The traditional middle ground is shrinking.
Overall Chris is right, like it or not what satisfies him, as an enthusiast, is being lost. But to lay blame at marketing types or a lack of enthusiasts is wrong, it’s not that simple. Car manufacturers are just trying to sell cars and if the modern car is what sells then so be it.
The only exception to this is modern ride quality, it’s simply unnecessary. But I do think that we are going to see a shift back towards more comfortable cars as people go about their business in a slower, more economical way.
It will be interesting to see how the GT86 fairs as this is an honourable attempt by a manufacturer to follow the desire of the enthusiast. But its success will be judged by one thing alone, how many they sell.
Mr Harris the truth be told is likes of yourself gives review after the car has been designed and built for a particular market and same old responses from fellow jurno's then public after every model eventually ends up pretty much ignoring everyone for a safer wider audience bet to sell and selling is the game not pleasing a minor niche.
Its like wanting more power and less weight as every other post seems to be on PH if you want that then sacrifice NVH and safety build quality and trim too not to mention durability and reliabilty as well. so as motor manufacture designer or engineer should they ignore local regional country and world wide regulations and better a previous product for sake of less weight?
On reflection new driving is pretty much everyone wanted when the cars first penned earlier with previous critics taken on board for its particular market so not marketing fault nor engineers because they want to make something you said you wanted to buy previously. Eventually in this last decade you all get ignored for not putting your money where your mouth is and a good review or bad simply does not affect sales these days in the slightest.
Its like wanting more power and less weight as every other post seems to be on PH if you want that then sacrifice NVH and safety build quality and trim too not to mention durability and reliabilty as well. so as motor manufacture designer or engineer should they ignore local regional country and world wide regulations and better a previous product for sake of less weight?
On reflection new driving is pretty much everyone wanted when the cars first penned earlier with previous critics taken on board for its particular market so not marketing fault nor engineers because they want to make something you said you wanted to buy previously. Eventually in this last decade you all get ignored for not putting your money where your mouth is and a good review or bad simply does not affect sales these days in the slightest.
V8RX7 said:
Plus what new car matches my RX7 - 420bhp and 1350kg or my MX5 210bhp and 1050kg - not just in power to weight but FUN ?
Have you driven the new 220bhp Elise SC?My Elise is more fun more of the time than my MX5 turbo.
I'm with you on the RX7 though, another RX7 is the first thing I'm going to buy when I have a spare parking space.
Donkey62 said:
... a good review or bad simply does not affect sales these days in the slightest.
That, I vehemently disagree with - I know quite a lot of people who have discounted a car without even driving it on the basis of a review; and one or two who have actually bought a car without driving it purely on the basis of a road test. Road tests and reviews are important - there's no way someone can realistically drive every car on the market before making a decision. Before buying my Elise I tried about 20 different models and people thought I was made for trying that many; that only scratched the surface of all the cars available, though.
80% of 911 buyers might not know steering feel if it punched them in the face but if journalists slated the car for its lack, I suspect many of them would buy something else.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 15th November 09:13
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. (...) No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide.
A LSD is device that increases traction, not reduce it so its absence would be a help if anything.But if you wanted deliberately to overcome grip in a low grip situation, it helps to have drive to both tyres.
Why do I get the feeling that even responding to this post is the beginning of the hiding to nowhere?
No idea about "hiding to nowhere" but looking into what a LSD is (and does) and also understanding the difference between lateral grip and traction might help a little. It's not very complicated.
Yes the original Lotus Élan - 1962-1973, which the Mazda Mx5 shamelessly & successfully plagiarised.
It's age belies its abilities even today, have a go in one & anyone will 'get what it's all about'......
Chapmans philosophy of lightness & agility holds good, his attitude to suspension was firm damping with softer spring rates to keep the wheel/tyre in contact with the road.
I know things have moved on massively since the '60s/'70s but it sounds a lot like many enthusiastic drivers are wanting less technology intervention ?
quote=MagicalTrevor]So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
[/quote]
It's age belies its abilities even today, have a go in one & anyone will 'get what it's all about'......
Chapmans philosophy of lightness & agility holds good, his attitude to suspension was firm damping with softer spring rates to keep the wheel/tyre in contact with the road.
I know things have moved on massively since the '60s/'70s but it sounds a lot like many enthusiastic drivers are wanting less technology intervention ?
quote=MagicalTrevor]So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
[/quote]
kambites said:
I know quite a lot of people who have discounted a car without even driving it on the basis of a review; and one or two who have actually bought a car without driving it purely on the basis of a road test.
I know people who have driven and liked a car, and then discounted it on the basis of a so-so review that they read afterwards, and bought a car with a 'better' review which they also admit they didn't like as much. But the reviews say it's a better product, so it must be true.I have enjoyed many cars that have had less than glowing reviews, and disliked many that have had great ones. Quite apart from the fact that we all need cars to do slightly different things, we are also all different in ourselves.
I used to see it when I was in the hi-fi trade all the time. People wander in with a copy of What Hi-Fi and only want to audition the 5-star kit. They seem to think any suggestion of something that only got four or three stars constituted an attempt to rip them off, even though it would work beautifully with the rest of the system they planned to integrate it with.
The power that magazines and journalists hold over huge swathes of the buying public cannot be overstated.
The author has finally realized THE basic truth about today's sports cars. The lack of interaction. Ergo, it is time for him to hang up his keyboard and find another job. Today's world and this audience has no need of him any longer.
Gadgetry for sport automobiling warrants as much praise as a tune played on a player piano. It is designed into cars only to broaden the buying market and allow the unskilled to drive and buy. Rather than encouraging interaction, the media has simply trained readers in new terminology. If you master the lingo, you are the local "pro".
But I have never seen any car handle as well as a sparsely equipped classic in truly expert hands. Technology compensates for inadequate driving skills but also sets limits that hobble great drivers. With skill no longer being a criteria, auto writers dwell on looks, gadgets, price, power, speed and stats. Who cares?
Gadgetry for sport automobiling warrants as much praise as a tune played on a player piano. It is designed into cars only to broaden the buying market and allow the unskilled to drive and buy. Rather than encouraging interaction, the media has simply trained readers in new terminology. If you master the lingo, you are the local "pro".
But I have never seen any car handle as well as a sparsely equipped classic in truly expert hands. Technology compensates for inadequate driving skills but also sets limits that hobble great drivers. With skill no longer being a criteria, auto writers dwell on looks, gadgets, price, power, speed and stats. Who cares?
Best (as in most fun) car I've ever driven remains the 60s Lotus Elan. plushuit said:
The author has finally realized THE basic truth about today's sports cars. The lack of interaction. Ergo, it is time for him to hang up his keyboard and find another job. Today's world and this audience has no need of him any longer.
Gadgetry for sport automobiling warrants as much praise as a tune played on a player piano. It is designed into cars only to broaden the buying market and allow the unskilled to drive and buy. Rather than encouraging interaction, the media has simply trained readers in new terminology. If you master the lingo, you are the local "pro".
But I have never seen any car handle as well as a sparsely equipped classic in truly expert hands. Technology compensates for inadequate driving skills but also sets limits that hobble great drivers. With skill no longer being a criteria, auto writers dwell on looks, gadgets, price, power, speed and stats. Who cares?
Absolutely. Most consumers (including here bizarrely) want big numbers : big wheels, fat tyres, loads of bhp, loads of mpg. Those things are easy to market too.Gadgetry for sport automobiling warrants as much praise as a tune played on a player piano. It is designed into cars only to broaden the buying market and allow the unskilled to drive and buy. Rather than encouraging interaction, the media has simply trained readers in new terminology. If you master the lingo, you are the local "pro".
But I have never seen any car handle as well as a sparsely equipped classic in truly expert hands. Technology compensates for inadequate driving skills but also sets limits that hobble great drivers. With skill no longer being a criteria, auto writers dwell on looks, gadgets, price, power, speed and stats. Who cares?
Far more difficult to market a low COG, low polar moment of inertia, communicative steering, highly modulated brakes, adjustable chassis etc etc
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