New 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts
Discussion
Hold on a minute - few things.
1. The cyclists in question were deliberately riding three wide on a fast moving A road. They should be in single file. They knew I was there but didn't care. I maintained a large gap between them and us as if I would another car.
2. At the point of overtake I was well over the other side of the road - person no.3 moved over and went up against (and probably crossed)the white line.
3. I have no problem with sharing the roads. But I would expect others to respect my need / want to use them in the same way that I do them.
I agree, this is an example and you could get all "Brake" about it. But the example given was an example of agressive / dangerous riding with little or no respect for other road users.
1. The cyclists in question were deliberately riding three wide on a fast moving A road. They should be in single file. They knew I was there but didn't care. I maintained a large gap between them and us as if I would another car.
2. At the point of overtake I was well over the other side of the road - person no.3 moved over and went up against (and probably crossed)the white line.
3. I have no problem with sharing the roads. But I would expect others to respect my need / want to use them in the same way that I do them.
I agree, this is an example and you could get all "Brake" about it. But the example given was an example of agressive / dangerous riding with little or no respect for other road users.
Edited by Skellen on Friday 3rd May 13:57
I think this thread has gotten off to a bad start 
How's about we offer up some good designs of roundabouts instead, which is how I'd thought it would go. pictures on a postcard please. In case your wondering I am in no way anti cyling, I spent the best part of 10 years being a pro cyclist so know the score.
The TFRL / Millbrook test site I'm sure does not have lunatic numpty drivers or dimwitted cyclists, you need a valid special Millbrook licence just to access the place!
How's about we offer up some good designs of roundabouts instead, which is how I'd thought it would go. pictures on a postcard please. In case your wondering I am in no way anti cyling, I spent the best part of 10 years being a pro cyclist so know the score.
The TFRL / Millbrook test site I'm sure does not have lunatic numpty drivers or dimwitted cyclists, you need a valid special Millbrook licence just to access the place!
Skellen said:
Hold on a minute - few things.
1. The cyclists in question were deliberately riding three wide on a fast moving A road. They should be in single file. They knew I was there but didn't care. I maintained a large gap between them and us as if I would another car.
2. At the point of overtake I was well over the other side of the road - person no.3 moved over and went up against (and probably crossed)the white line.
I'll take what you say at face value, but kicking a car as it's overtaking isn't something I would do, purely for my own safety.1. The cyclists in question were deliberately riding three wide on a fast moving A road. They should be in single file. They knew I was there but didn't care. I maintained a large gap between them and us as if I would another car.
2. At the point of overtake I was well over the other side of the road - person no.3 moved over and went up against (and probably crossed)the white line.
Edited by Skellen on Friday 3rd May 13:57
Here's a good graphic one of the other guys posted, illustrating why riders sometimes position themselves near the white line.
If the lane is wide enough, I would happily keep over to the edge, but if it is too narrow for 1 car + 1 bike, then I have no choice but to block you squeezing through. It's not always the way it seems...
BOR said:
If the lane is wide enough, I would happily keep over to the edge, but if it is too narrow for 1 car + 1 bike, then I have no choice but to block you squeezing through. It's not always the way it seems...
When driving a car through a narrowing of the road which is not quite wide enough for two cars to pass safely, I wonder if anyone would have a problem with the idea that you position your car to make it clear to oncoming traffic that passing through it together is not an option?Guybrush said:
Will give too much priority to the road user more likely to get hurt
Heaven forbid!Guybrush said:
It will also create congestion.
...unless schemes like this are successful, rolled-out across the nation and lots more people decide to start riding bikes to work, shops etc. = Congestion reduced.Guybrush said:
Completely stupid, it has to have been dreamt up by a leftie.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?danjama said:
I started cycling to work in February, after getting sick of stuffy trains and diseased people.
Can honestly say I do not miss the train, and I resent days where I can't ride. The 30 mile round trip is doing wonders for my health/happiness.
That said, I can honestly say I would avoid these proposed roundabout designs. I would feel much more vulnerable and ignored in such a system. I will avoid them much the same way I avoid cycle paths. The problem with cycle paths in London is, they are full of slow, wobbly idiots who have no idea what they're doing. More dangerous o nthem than on the road.
I find the roads in london are full of slow, wobbly idiots who have no idea what they are doing too, but that doesn't mean I drive my car down the pavement. If there's a cycle lane, you should be legally obliged to use it unless you need to make a turn which it doesn't account for. As bicycle traffic increases, you can expect to see more getting in your way when cycling, so be careful what you wish for.Can honestly say I do not miss the train, and I resent days where I can't ride. The 30 mile round trip is doing wonders for my health/happiness.
That said, I can honestly say I would avoid these proposed roundabout designs. I would feel much more vulnerable and ignored in such a system. I will avoid them much the same way I avoid cycle paths. The problem with cycle paths in London is, they are full of slow, wobbly idiots who have no idea what they're doing. More dangerous o nthem than on the road.
A lex said:
speedking31 said:
There appear to be some significant differences between the Dutch model and the proposed British implementation.
1. The Dutch roundabout has sufficient space for a car to clear the roundabout before stopping to give way to the cyclist.
Erm, some do - many don't!1. The Dutch roundabout has sufficient space for a car to clear the roundabout before stopping to give way to the cyclist.
MC Bodge said:
speedking31 said:
2. The Dutch cyclists have continuing dedicated cyclepaths beyond the roundabout. The British version spits the cyclist back out into the traffic.
Well, would you prefer it if an entire UK-wide, integrated bike-car road infrastructure was built over, say, a bank holiday weekend?The junctions are often the most hazardous places for riding a bike.
I completely forgot about this thread, not surprised to see it's gone the way it has though. Personally I just don't think it could really work, but I'm not anti the idea of improving safety for all road users.
With a bit of thought there are probably some better ideas/designs that could be tested, like someone above me has already suggested.
With a bit of thought there are probably some better ideas/designs that could be tested, like someone above me has already suggested.
Having driven and ridden in the Netherlands the big problem with this will be that the culture of cycling is different there.
Cyclists have right-of-way in many situations but they ride with more discipline and are generally more aware and considerate.
There's a victim/defensive mentality in UK cyclists which leads them into riding with less consideration - something like this could easily become hazardous, to be quite frank.
We don't train cyclists at all which is a huge mistake - the Dutch do.
Classic problem - there are areas around here where there's a separate pavement, cycle path and road and you'll often see cyclists using all 3 and paying little attention when doing any of them! That's what will happen with that roundabout.
See also using the US 'any lane' freeway model - over here it would cause carnage because it's not our driving culture.
Cyclists have right-of-way in many situations but they ride with more discipline and are generally more aware and considerate.
There's a victim/defensive mentality in UK cyclists which leads them into riding with less consideration - something like this could easily become hazardous, to be quite frank.
We don't train cyclists at all which is a huge mistake - the Dutch do.
Classic problem - there are areas around here where there's a separate pavement, cycle path and road and you'll often see cyclists using all 3 and paying little attention when doing any of them! That's what will happen with that roundabout.
See also using the US 'any lane' freeway model - over here it would cause carnage because it's not our driving culture.
405dogvan said:
There's a victim/defensive mentality in UK cyclists
Chicken or Egg?405dogvan said:
We don't train cyclists at all which is a huge mistake - the Dutch do.
Not quite true, children from our Local primary schools do. Our area does have a fair few cyclists. ps. How does a driving 'culture' come about? Did it start overnight, never, ever to be changed?
cptsideways said:
How's about we offer up some good designs of roundabouts instead, which is how I'd thought it would go. pictures on a postcard please.
Nothing to do with cycling, but also Dutch. I've been working in Holland for a while and the first time I came across one of these my immediate thought was utterly brilliant and that we need these in the UK asap. You have to stay in lane as you go around the roundabout, there are raised lane dividers with flush entry and exit points, but stray out of your lane and it's like the worlds worst ever sleeping Policeman, and boy do they give you a damned good hard thump!
These would sort out all those lazy/dozy roundabout straight-liners in the UK who are incapable of staying in lane, especially when simply going straight on from L1, as drifting into L2 when halfway across would break their suspension and their necks.
405dogvan said:
Having driven and ridden in the Netherlands the big problem with this will be that the culture of cycling is different there.
Cyclists have right-of-way in many situations but they ride with more discipline and are generally more aware and considerate.
Inclined to agree. Cycling seems a big part of Dutch life.Cyclists have right-of-way in many situations but they ride with more discipline and are generally more aware and considerate.
I genuinely feel we'd struggle with it over here in the UK. Many members of the public seem to struggle with the rules of regular roundabouts as it is without now introducing the need for awareness on the left for a cyclist with priority.
The impression I got when over there was that cyclists are taken seriously - proper decent cycle lanes and roads designed with them in mind. In the UK, it does unfortunately seem very much like a us and them attitude.
MC Bodge said:
Guybrush said:
Will give too much priority to the road user more likely to get hurt
Heaven forbid!Guybrush said:
It will also create congestion.
...unless schemes like this are successful, rolled-out across the nation and lots more people decide to start riding bikes to work, shops etc. = Congestion reduced.Guybrush said:
Completely stupid, it has to have been dreamt up by a leftie.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?Guybrush said:
If a cyclist is given the feeling they have a right to cycle straight across the path of a car on a roundabout, I have a feeling there may be some accidents. Maybe I have misunderstood the idea of these new roundabouts, but they would seem to be designed to hinder smooth flow of vehicle traffic, a bit like the lunacy of pedestrian lights on roundabouts. Wasted fuel and time, plus more dangerous (not very 'green' either). Keep cycles apart from traffic surely. These ideas seem to stem from elderly anti-car types, usually of a lib-dem or Labour persuasion. The cuckoo land thought that so many people will turn to bicycles, if you make driving unpleasant, is so typical of the barmy left. When Livingstone was mayor of London, he tried to turn people to public transport with similar tactics, by trying to make driving less pleasant, even for example filling in bus stops so when a bus stopped (every few yards) the queue of cars stuck behind were delayed even further. The thinking behind these roundabouts is similarly mendacious.
My thoughts too.The filling in of bus stops and deliberately holding cars up is something Worcester council have been doing too.
Worcester is a small city, and only has bus lanes on three routes, with different designs, and operating times on all of them.
Another thing against these proposed islands, is it is yet more "localism" , traffic islands are bad enough already, with you quite often needing local knowledge on approach to one.
Balmoral said:
cptsideways said:
How's about we offer up some good designs of roundabouts instead, which is how I'd thought it would go. pictures on a postcard please.
Nothing to do with cycling, but also Dutch. I've been working in Holland for a while and the first time I came across one of these my immediate thought was utterly brilliant and that we need these in the UK asap. You have to stay in lane as you go around the roundabout, there are raised lane dividers with flush entry and exit points, but stray out of your lane and it's like the worlds worst ever sleeping Policeman, and boy do they give you a damned good hard thump!
These would sort out all those lazy/dozy roundabout straight-liners in the UK who are incapable of staying in lane, especially when simply going straight on from L1, as drifting into L2 when halfway across would break their suspension and their necks.
There are some roundabouts that have a left turn only lane, sometimes with a kerb. One that stands out is joining the A23 when leaving Gatwick Airport. It's a much better design.
Guybrush said:
If a cyclist is given the feeling they have a right to cycle straight across the path of a car on a roundabout, I have a feeling there may be some accidents. Maybe I have misunderstood the idea of these new roundabouts, but they would seem to be designed to hinder smooth flow of vehicle traffic, a bit like the lunacy of pedestrian lights on roundabouts. Wasted fuel and time, plus more dangerous (not very 'green' either). Keep cycles apart from traffic surely. These ideas seem to stem from elderly anti-car types, usually of a lib-dem or Labour persuasion. The cuckoo land thought that so many people will turn to bicycles, if you make driving unpleasant, is so typical of the barmy left. When Livingstone was mayor of London, he tried to turn people to public transport with similar tactics, by trying to make driving less pleasant, even for example filling in bus stops so when a bus stopped (every few yards) the queue of cars stuck behind were delayed even further. The thinking behind these roundabouts is similarly mendacious.
It's not about making driving unpleasant, it's about making cycling more pleasant - especially for the majority of people who lake the speed and inclination to mix it with busy traffic.It's also been done successfully in the past. What seems to be missed in these discussions is that cycling wasn't always part of the Dutch way of life. It was only in the mid-70s that they started turning their back on a car-centric culture and building facilities that took cyclists and pedestrians in to account as well.
Guybrush said:
These ideas seem to stem from elderly anti-car types, usually of a lib-dem or Labour persuasion.
I don't equate consideration for other people or mutually beneficial urban bicycle facilities with a hatred of cars or a political persuasion, although it appears that some here do. Then again, I don't feel that I much different from somebody living in the Netherlands either and am happy to be associated with the rest of our continent.
Guybrush said:
The cuckoo land thought that so many people will turn to bicycles,
I find it odd that despite other, similar, countries managing it, so many (presumably British) people on here can't (or wish not to) envisage any possible ways in which the UK could change that might result in the positive outcome of a large increase in bicycle use.Although I've never seen it as such, maybe a "right-wing" point of view is actually just short-hand for selfish, backward-looking and 'c'onservative.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 5th May 14:09
MC Bodge said:
Guybrush said:
These ideas seem to stem from elderly anti-car types, usually of a lib-dem or Labour persuasion.
I don't equate consideration for other people or mutually beneficial urban bicycle facilities with a political persuasion, although it appears that some here do. Then again, I don't feel that I much different from somebody living in the Netherlands either and am happy to be associated with the rest of our continent.
Guybrush said:
The cuckoo land thought that so many people will turn to bicycles,
I find it odd that despite other, similar countries managing it, so many, presumably British, people on here can't envisage any possible ways in which the UK could change that might result in the positive outcome of a large increase in bicycle use.Although I've never seen it as such, maybe a "right-wing" point of view is actually just short-hand for selfish, backward-looking and 'c'onservative.
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