RE: Alfa Romeo 4C: Review
Discussion
s m said:
That's right - 1091 with 2 testers, half a tank and test gear.
Nowadays the figure is car ready to drive, no tester.
Recent Exige S was 1176kg - same as a Sierra V6 more or less
Didn't know Autocar went backwards with their weight test. Makes a mockery of them praising a few cars recently for coming under the claimed (EU) weight.Nowadays the figure is car ready to drive, no tester.
Recent Exige S was 1176kg - same as a Sierra V6 more or less
otolith said:
They have a thing or two to learn from the Germans, who would offer a special lightweight edition (at a premium price) with these items stripped out and then charge you to put them back in again.
Heh yes, agree - they are doing it wrong. Needs to come as a limited edition 4CA (Alleggerita) for only 59.999 ;-).AgentZ said:
Didn't know Autocar went backwards with their weight test. Makes a mockery of them praising a few cars recently for coming under the claimed (EU) weight.
I don't understand why you think they've gone "backwards"? In the older tests they gave you 2 weights - a kerb weight ( car ready to drive ), then a tested weight ( 2 road testers, test gear and a half tank of petrol ). The kerb weight plus half a tank, the test gear and two road testers equals the tested weight. In the case of the 1.9 205 Gti it was 910kg for the kerb weight and 1091kg for the tested weight. The two testers, fuel and test gear weighed 181kgNowadays they just give you the manufacturer claimed kerb weight ( car ready to drive - no testers on board ) vs the actual kerb weight they recorded on the weighbridge at MIRA. For the Gt86 Toyota's claimed weight was 1275kg - the test car Autocar had actually weighed 1235kg. If you look at their videos they detail how they do their tests now
Different options will sometimes explain the different weights for test cars.
For example, the E46 M3 CSL Autocar tested came in at 1385kg - it didn't have aircon. Most cars were specced with aircon, hence a lot will weigh 1410-1420kg. They tell you what options, wheels/tyres etc the car they actually tested was fitted with.
Personally, I'd rather see what Autocar actually weighed a particular test car at than read the manufacturer's claimed figure and the associated fog of uncertainty about whether it was a wet or dry weight or included luggage or passengers.
The Autocar weights have come out fairly close to the weight of my own cars when I've weighed them out of morbid interest.
Wow, big difference that. But this is due to NL to environment tax, right? 4C probably much better at !"§!#* EU tests...
@errek72: I think the correct term is hebzucht, right
? Think it comes pretty well equipped as standard, personally I'd not order much. The no cost options (won't be nice without AC if used even for a bit of touring), perhaps the sport suspension setup and that's it. Not sure how it looks in black though (everything other colour is extra here).
@trashbat: interesting, sounds like a good move especially if the 8:04 ring lap time the 4C is supposed to have done is a) true and b) for a standard car. Would indicate some potential.
@errek72: I think the correct term is hebzucht, right
? Think it comes pretty well equipped as standard, personally I'd not order much. The no cost options (won't be nice without AC if used even for a bit of touring), perhaps the sport suspension setup and that's it. Not sure how it looks in black though (everything other colour is extra here). @trashbat: interesting, sounds like a good move especially if the 8:04 ring lap time the 4C is supposed to have done is a) true and b) for a standard car. Would indicate some potential.
s m said:
I don't understand why you think they've gone "backwards"? In the older tests they gave you 2 weights - a kerb weight ( car ready to drive ), then a tested weight ( 2 road testers, test gear and a half tank of petrol ). The kerb weight plus half a tank, the test gear and two road testers equals the tested weight. In the case of the 1.9 205 Gti it was 910kg for the kerb weight and 1091kg for the tested weight. The two testers, fuel and test gear weighed 181kg
Nowadays they just give you the manufacturer claimed kerb weight ( car ready to drive - no testers on board ) vs the actual kerb weight they recorded on the weighbridge at MIRA. For the Gt86 Toyota's claimed weight was 1275kg - the test car Autocar had actually weighed 1235kg. If you look at their videos they detail how they do their tests now
Different options will sometimes explain the different weights for test cars.
For example, the E46 M3 CSL Autocar tested came in at 1385kg - it didn't have aircon. Most cars were specced with aircon, hence a lot will weigh 1410-1420kg. They tell you what options, wheels/tyres etc the car they actually tested was fitted with.
Personally, I'd rather see what Autocar actually weighed a particular test car at than read the manufacturer's claimed figure and the associated fog of uncertainty about whether it was a wet or dry weight or included luggage or passengers.
The Autocar weights have come out fairly close to the weight of my own cars when I've weighed them out of morbid interest.
I just meant that with the Toyota example of 1275kg I assume it to be by EU directive (includes 68kg driver, 7 kg luggage and ~33kg (90%) of fuel in this case) If Autocar weigh the car with just a full fuel tank and I'm correct with the above, that would mean a weight of 1205kg, not 1235kg. (I think!)Nowadays they just give you the manufacturer claimed kerb weight ( car ready to drive - no testers on board ) vs the actual kerb weight they recorded on the weighbridge at MIRA. For the Gt86 Toyota's claimed weight was 1275kg - the test car Autocar had actually weighed 1235kg. If you look at their videos they detail how they do their tests now
Different options will sometimes explain the different weights for test cars.
For example, the E46 M3 CSL Autocar tested came in at 1385kg - it didn't have aircon. Most cars were specced with aircon, hence a lot will weigh 1410-1420kg. They tell you what options, wheels/tyres etc the car they actually tested was fitted with.
Personally, I'd rather see what Autocar actually weighed a particular test car at than read the manufacturer's claimed figure and the associated fog of uncertainty about whether it was a wet or dry weight or included luggage or passengers.
The Autocar weights have come out fairly close to the weight of my own cars when I've weighed them out of morbid interest.
I just find it funny that there are so many different weights for cars still when we have a EU standard.
My car (Fiesta ST2-No options) for example:
My V5C = 1211kg "mass in service"
Ford EC claim = 1163kg (no options)
Autocar = 1200kg (full fuel tank only?/no options)
EVO = 1193kg (fuel tank only/no options)
Just like claimed MPG the figure from Ford is way out.
Ali_T said:
I doubt it's anything like 70kg. I remember the AC unit in an EP3 Civic was 25 kg. Head unit? 5kg or so? The other electric stuff is pointless.
Hm, OK. Head unit itself about 1kg (really looks like that Parrot Android based thing), 4 speakers about 3kg, GPS receiver and wiring, connectors etc 1kg. So 5kg. AC unit might be 25kg itself, but what about the piping, controls etc? Due to the MR layout this will need to be routed through half the car, probably via the sills. So another 15 kg? Mirrors + heating + cabling probably not more than 2kg. So it's more like 45-55 extra kg probably? Looking forward to an comprehensive review, Harris' video really great as ever (thanks for posting the link, sm!).
AgentZ said:
s m said:
I don't understand why you think they've gone "backwards"? In the older tests they gave you 2 weights - a kerb weight ( car ready to drive ), then a tested weight ( 2 road testers, test gear and a half tank of petrol ). The kerb weight plus half a tank, the test gear and two road testers equals the tested weight. In the case of the 1.9 205 Gti it was 910kg for the kerb weight and 1091kg for the tested weight. The two testers, fuel and test gear weighed 181kg
Nowadays they just give you the manufacturer claimed kerb weight ( car ready to drive - no testers on board ) vs the actual kerb weight they recorded on the weighbridge at MIRA. For the Gt86 Toyota's claimed weight was 1275kg - the test car Autocar had actually weighed 1235kg. If you look at their videos they detail how they do their tests now
Different options will sometimes explain the different weights for test cars.
For example, the E46 M3 CSL Autocar tested came in at 1385kg - it didn't have aircon. Most cars were specced with aircon, hence a lot will weigh 1410-1420kg. They tell you what options, wheels/tyres etc the car they actually tested was fitted with.
Personally, I'd rather see what Autocar actually weighed a particular test car at than read the manufacturer's claimed figure and the associated fog of uncertainty about whether it was a wet or dry weight or included luggage or passengers.
The Autocar weights have come out fairly close to the weight of my own cars when I've weighed them out of morbid interest.
I just meant that with the Toyota example of 1275kg I assume it to be by EU directive (includes 68kg driver, 7 kg luggage and ~33kg (90%) of fuel in this case) If Autocar weigh the car with just a full fuel tank and I'm correct with the above, that would mean a weight of 1205kg, not 1235kg. (I think!)Nowadays they just give you the manufacturer claimed kerb weight ( car ready to drive - no testers on board ) vs the actual kerb weight they recorded on the weighbridge at MIRA. For the Gt86 Toyota's claimed weight was 1275kg - the test car Autocar had actually weighed 1235kg. If you look at their videos they detail how they do their tests now
Different options will sometimes explain the different weights for test cars.
For example, the E46 M3 CSL Autocar tested came in at 1385kg - it didn't have aircon. Most cars were specced with aircon, hence a lot will weigh 1410-1420kg. They tell you what options, wheels/tyres etc the car they actually tested was fitted with.
Personally, I'd rather see what Autocar actually weighed a particular test car at than read the manufacturer's claimed figure and the associated fog of uncertainty about whether it was a wet or dry weight or included luggage or passengers.
The Autocar weights have come out fairly close to the weight of my own cars when I've weighed them out of morbid interest.
I just find it funny that there are so many different weights for cars still when we have a EU standard.
My car (Fiesta ST2-No options) for example:
My V5C = 1211kg "mass in service"
Ford EC claim = 1163kg (no options)
Autocar = 1200kg (full fuel tank only?/no options)
EVO = 1193kg (fuel tank only/no options)
Just like claimed MPG the figure from Ford is way out.
errek72 said:
trackdemon said:
A V6 would probably be larger, heavier, more expensive & less fuel efficient (with higher CO2 figures to go with it). It would sound magnificent though 
Alfa have a decent history of 1750cc 4 pot twin cams, so it's well within their history
I agree, the 4 fits the concept but a V6 would sound so much better, see also Exige roadster. Allegedly, CO2 was the reason production of the busso V6 was stopped. I wonder if they'll come back on that decision now the ice caps are growing again Alfa have a decent history of 1750cc 4 pot twin cams, so it's well within their history
Kolbenkopp said:
Hm, OK. Head unit itself about 1kg (really looks like that Parrot Android based thing), 4 speakers about 3kg, GPS receiver and wiring, connectors etc 1kg. So 5kg. AC unit might be 25kg itself, but what about the piping, controls etc? Due to the MR layout this will need to be routed through half the car, probably via the sills. So another 15 kg? Mirrors + heating + cabling probably not more than 2kg. So it's more like 45-55 extra kg probably?
The difference between AC and no AC in an Elise is about 30kg all in. I see no reason to believe this would be much different. AgentZ said:
I just find it funny that there are so many different weights for cars still when we have a EU standard.
Two points to make on that:1) The EU is not the world's main car market and I doubt they want to have to publish different figures in different places.
2) The EU's system is moronic - it picks a completely arbitrary weight for the driver and penalises cars for having large fuel tanks.
Krikkit said:
Review said:
And I suppose that statement kind of answers my suspicions that the 4C would have been better had it not used an expensive carbon tub and instead used the cash on an exotic motor with more cylinders.
Would it still be as zingy and exciting if it was sporting the extra weight of more cylinders and an aluminium tub? Surely that would put it much more towards a Cayman?Review said:
And I suppose that statement kind of answers my suspicions that the 4C would have been better had it not used an expensive carbon tub and instead used the cash on an exotic motor with more cylinders. That car would just have been a Cayman wannabe, the 4C is something more direct, something new.
If it was over a ton, it wouldn't be as zingy I'd think, and everyone would just harp on about how fat it had become - much like the GT86.Good on them for something different, and actually light weight rather than just pretending to be light weight.
Vladimir said:
Interesting that a manufacturer has to use carbon to go sub 1000kgs.
They don't have to, it depends what other compromises owners are willing to make. It looks as if what the use of carbon enables in this car is a more mainstream kind of cabin environment at an Elise-like kind of weight - which is a good thing to achieve. It's the kind of subtle compromise that PH contributors often struggle with, though (see RX-8 threads passim), so I am surprised at how many people here actually get it.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff