RE: Tesla Model S: PH Carpool

[bertie]

fatboy b said:

bertie said:

Mike_C said:

I'm just gonna leave this here...

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/driver-powe...

2016 Driver Power survey:

- Best for performance: Tesla Model S
- Best for handling: Tesla Model S
- Best for running costs: Tesla Model S
- Best ride quality: Tesla Model S
- Easiest to drive: Tesla Model S
- Best for practicality: Tesla Model S
- Best for in-car technology: Tesla Model S
- Best car overall: Tesla Model S (with the highest ever score of 97.46%

The whole survey is wrong, the XF is better in every way, fat boy says so.

You're finally seeing sense

I might not actually be telling the truth, I couldn't drive an XF, my mates dad has just got one and loves it, but he's 92 (I joke not) and it suits him perfectly...

[bertie]

Mosdef said:

bertie said:

Mosdef said:

'...... No score for smiles per mile or driver engagement though?!

Again, really?

No, because a near 5 metre 2 tonne saloon is not where you look for driver engagement.

Caterham, Elise, Cayman even - involving in varying degrees.

Massive saloon - not involving

Again, can be when there's a big, sonorous, characterful V8 involved, some steering feel, and some revs, gears etc. The QP (more previous than current model), M6GC, most AMGs, Panamera (GTS rather than Turbo) are all quite lively and what I'd call involving. Not scalpel sharp but enjoyable regardless.

As is my Ferrari FF, with what I think most would agree about the most charismatic V12 available and 652bhp.....

Use it every day, and it's lovely, I'd argue the "best" car Ferrari make, but if fun is on the cards it's not the one I go for.

[Lozrington]

cheddar said:

I've watched a shedload of Tesla videos in the last week, everything from drag races to journalist reviews to independent owners reviews and those 'Tesla acceleration passenger reaction' videos, I'm totally sold.

It's not the outright performance, it's the outright 'useable' performance, the all day everyday 'press and go ballistic' performance. No process to go through to disable traction or enable launch, no high rev histrionics, no rev matching or exhaust blaring kerfuffle that attracts unwanted attention.
I'm willing to bet that Tesla owners will use more of their available torque more of the time than any supercar owner, it's the fuss free they can just do it time after time.
Will they get bored of the 'one trick' character? Time will tell but I can imagine them getting back into a ice driven vehicle and wondering why it's such a fussy thing to drive.

I should add, I'm a diehard petrolhead, owned maybe 60 cars and only just bought my first auto (albeit with a 320hp V8) but resistance is futile, these Tesla's are the future

Finally..a non-owner who understands the attraction of these cars!
For all the crap talked by others about driver involvement, handling, sound, quality blah blah, I'll just give you a simple fact. From a choice of a Model S 90D, Jag XKR and E46 M3, the Tesla is the one that I'll choose for 90% of the time. Since I've had it, all other cars just feel like classic cars- not unpleasant to drive, but part of motoring history.

Did I mention the free premium spotify now included since a recent software update?

[ORD]

I've worked out that there's a pretty big divide amongst car and/or driving enthusiasts between those who enjoying the engagement of driving even non-sporty cars and those who see it as essentially binary - a car is either a Caterham for maximum engagement or may as well be an automous EV in which you are essentially a passenger.

I fall into the first camp. My family car still has a manual gearbox and is RWD because I enjoy driving. I would have got a family car with proper steering feel if I could find one, too. From my perspective, the idea of buying a car without gears and without an engine is utterly bizarre. It could do 0-60 in 1.4 seconds and I would still have absolutely no interest.

Our roads are very slow and very small and very congested. The idea that vast, instantaneous and characterless acceleration is the way to have fun strikes me as unreal. I'm more inclined to say that we should all be aiming at slower, rather than faster, cars and cars that do more interesting things (like sound great, require revs, etc). I see the Tesla S as essentially similar to an extremely powerful diesel barge but with terrible fuel economy.

[Lozrington]

ORD said:

I see the Tesla S as essentially similar to an extremely powerful diesel barge but with terrible fuel economy.

Eh?

[ORD]

Lozrington said:

ORD said:

I see the Tesla S as essentially similar to an extremely powerful diesel barge but with terrible fuel economy.

Eh?

Loads of acceleration without having to worry about gear and revs. Lots of torque. No manual box available.

But it uses up all its juice in a couple of hundred miles, rather than 600 like a diesel.

[p1stonhead]

ORD said:

Lozrington said:

ORD said:

I see the Tesla S as essentially similar to an extremely powerful diesel barge but with terrible fuel economy.

Eh?

Loads of acceleration without having to worry about gear and revs. Lots of torque. No manual box available.

But it uses up all its juice in a couple of hundred miles, rather than 600 like a diesel.

Its more like a diesel with incredible fuel economy but a 5L tank. Cost to fill is probably about the same.

I could live with 180-200 miles on diesel for £5.

[ORD]

A fair point.

[ZesPak]

bertie said:

I might not actually be telling the truth, I couldn't drive an XF, my mates dad has just got one and loves it, but he's 92 (I joke not) and it suits him perfectly...

Funnily enough, last year the final two on my shortlist were a Tesla Model S and a Jaguar XF.
In the end, I had no possibility for a decent charging solution at home so it ruled out the Tesla by default.

I haven't regretted the XF for a second (I'm 29), but I've since moved house and the Tesla would get it despite the interior not being completely up to scratch.
About once a month I go to a customer that is over 100mi away from me but there's several things you can do to make that work (driving past a quickcharger on your way back, destination charging,...).
People talking about range are either a bit silly or have a very specific usage pattern. I don't know anybody who do more miles in a single stretch a day than I do, and even then it wouldn't incapacitate the Tesla most of the time.

We all pick for ourselves what we want to make excuses for for me it's quite simple between the Tesla and the Jag (2.2D 200bhp):

TOC: Similar for a business owner here because of tax incentives.
Performance: The Jag isn't a scratch on the Tesla
Looks: Both look great imho, the Jag is a bit rarer around here though.
Practicality: Despite the jag being an estate, there's little in it in terms of loading volume.
Interior: The Jag feels more like a car, with nice materials and a snug cockpit feeling. The Tesla on the other hand feels more like a very nicely designed van cabin because of the room and the lack of a drivetrain tunnel in the centre.
Tech: I don't even have to comment here.

The last point would totally invalidate the interior point for me, and then some. But each to their own.

[gangzoom]

ORD said:

I've worked out that there's a pretty big divide amongst car and/or driving enthusiasts between those who enjoying the engagement of driving even non-sporty cars and those who see it as essentially binary - a car is either a Caterham for maximum engagement or may as well be an automous EV in which you are essentially a passenger.

I fall into the first camp. My family car still has a manual gearbox and is RWD because I enjoy driving. I would have got a family car with proper steering feel if I could find one, too. From my perspective, the idea of buying a car without gears and without an engine is utterly bizarre. It could do 0-60 in 1.4 seconds and I would still have absolutely no interest.

Your in a pretty small minority than. Even on this forum full of 'Petrolheads' I don't see people rushing out to buying a Caterham/Elise, or even the GT86. Instead most seem to hanker after a Golf R, M cars etc, which all have fake engine noise as standard.

People are all into different things, just because you don't 'get' why many of us like EVs, doesn't make the EV bad or irrelevant.

I suspect in 20-30 years time when EVs are the norm, whilst the rest of us are getting on with life, your be spending your weekends at the equivalent events like these, which I'm sure your find 'fun' .

[Chris Stott]

I’m not an owner, but I have spent quite a bit of time in a P90D as both passenger and driver.

The interior isn’t as luxurious as an S Class/7er/A8/Panamera, but the materials are fine and the seats and driving position are very good. It’s a more minimalist design than the other big saloons, but this fits the Tesla’s persona IMO. All the tech is intuitive, and works well.

For me, the lack of noise is a good thing – manufacturers spend millions on trying to minimise NVH in this sort of car, and the Tesla simply removes one of the major sources. It’s not silent as there’s still some wind noise and also from the tyres (21”), but it's still very quiet.

It’s a revelation to drive compared to an ICE car. Having 100% of the torque available instantly makes driving so easy – see an overtaking opportunity, put your foot down, job done. No lag, no waiting whilst the gearbox kick’s down 3 (or more) gears, just instant go. And it is epically fast. Ignore the ‘it’s only fast off the line’ comments… maybe it doesn’t do 100-150 as fast as a (insert supercar here), but on UK roads, at speeds below what would see you jailed if caught, it is Supercar fast… fast enough to keep up with a 458 (much to the 458 drivers surprise )

No major criticism of the driving basics (steering/brakes/ride/handling). The steering doesn’t have a lot of ‘feel’, but that’s true of most new cars. It’s well weighted (at least in sport mode) and it’s very easy to place the car. To drive, the car feels most like a Panamera – big, heavy, wide, compliant, but with an underlying solidity. Plenty of roll resistance, but not overly stiff vertically, so the ride is decent (and quiet). The car can be driven VERY quickly on A roads, and exiting tight corners really is hilarious as the thing just rockets away. Is it fun? Hmmm, not so much once the novelty wears off, but that applies as much to its competitors. They just aren’t that sort of car.

The regen braking feels really odd at first (like you’ve left the handbrake on 1 or 2 clicks), but once you get used to it, it’s fantastic – as long as you have reasonable anticipation, you end up hardly needing to use the brakes in normal driving.

I was seriously impressed.

[rodericb]

Chris Stott said:

It’s a revelation to drive compared to an ICE car. Having 100% of the torque available instantly makes driving so easy – see an overtaking opportunity, put your foot down, job done. No lag, no waiting whilst the gearbox kick’s down 3 (or more) gears, just instant go. And it is epically fast. Ignore the ‘it’s only fast off the line’ comments… maybe it doesn’t do 100-150 as fast as a (insert supercar here), but on UK roads, at speeds below what would see you jailed if caught, it is Supercar fast… fast enough to keep up with a 458 (much to the 458 drivers surprise )

100% of torque at zero revs and it reduces as revs rise. Opposite to an engine pretty much. Have a look at a thread on TMC about when one was strapped to the dyno. Be sure to read the whole thread https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-lied...

As for supercar fast at anything more than a standing start have a look at this thread on Inside EV's about the roll on between a P85D and a BMW M4. http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-p85d-versus-bmw...

Lozrington said:

Did I mention the free premium spotify now included since a recent software update?

It just keeps getting better and better.

Edited by rodericb on Thursday 21st April 14:23

[otolith]

Chris Stott said:

It’s a revelation to drive compared to an ICE car. Having 100% of the torque available instantly makes driving so easy – see an overtaking opportunity, put your foot down, job done. No lag, no waiting whilst the gearbox kick’s down 3 (or more) gears, just instant go. And it is epically fast. Ignore the ‘it’s only fast off the line’ comments… maybe it doesn’t do 100-150 as fast as a (insert supercar here), but on UK roads, at speeds below what would see you jailed if caught, it is Supercar fast… fast enough to keep up with a 458 (much to the 458 drivers surprise )

I was talking to someone the other day who was blaming their labrynthitis on a passenger ride in his son's new Model S. Apparently floored it from a standstill when he was looking down into the footwell and not expecting it and seems to have suffered some kind of injury as a result of the jerk.

[ORD]

We are still left with a motorway barge that can't go more than a couple of hundred miles on the motorway at a time. It's a long distance car with a city car range.

[scubadude]

ORD said:

We are still left with a motorway barge that can't go more than a couple of hundred miles on the motorway at a time. It's a long distance car with a city car range.

...which you can refill cheaply and easily (albeit not quickly) but just live with it. Almost everyone has a smartphone that includes an MP3 player which is either a PITA to rip music too (itunes and laptop required) or you pay to download it in LoFi... remember when we had tape decks and you could just stick a new one in in 1/2 second and have another 90minutes of sound!?

The point is- refuelling on long trips is a marginal issue for some people, some of the time and a non-issue for most people, most of the time.

They are not (yet) suitable for everyone- just like CD players used to be £1700 and MP3 players used to have 64mb :-)

Alot of people do not need engaging, exciting, emotional cars (they buy Peugeots for example) so EV's have their place, long may it last- so long as the country lanes are empty on Weekend mornings and evenings for those of us with proper engaging cars to enjoy while the noobs are recharging happily.

PS- I would have a Tesla as a daily driver in a heartbeat, ideal family barge where Child and bladder limit distance between stops more than any battery would.

[AnotherClarkey]

ORD said:

We are still left with a motorway barge that can't go more than a couple of hundred miles on the motorway at a time. It's a long distance car with a city car range.

You can say that as many times as you want but it doesn't mean it is valid.

[fatboy b]

AnotherClarkey said:

ORD said:

We are still left with a motorway barge that can't go more than a couple of hundred miles on the motorway at a time. It's a long distance car with a city car range.

You can say that as many times as you want but it doesn't mean it is valid.

Maybe this will help you understand. And if you like to go faster than 70, the range goes down further.

Edited by fatboy b on Thursday 21st April 16:13

[kambites]

It's a fair point; for the tiny proportion of people who ever do more than 200 miles in one go; the range will be an issue.

No car suits everyone.

[p1stonhead]

fatboy b said:

AnotherClarkey said:

ORD said:

We are still left with a motorway barge that can't go more than a couple of hundred miles on the motorway at a time. It's a long distance car with a city car range.

You can say that as many times as you want but it doesn't mean it is valid.

Maybe this will help you understand. And if you like to go faster than 70, the range goes down further.

Edited by fatboy b on Thursday 21st April 16:13

You think going that far on a fiver (or for arugments sake, a tenner) is bad going?

£50 to do 1000 miles so for an average person, £600 a year to go 12,000 miles? Sounds bloody good to me and this allowing a tenner a charge which I think is a bit high.

[Chris Stott]

rodericb said:

100% of torque at zero revs and it reduces as revs rise. Opposite to an engine pretty much. Have a look at a thread on TMC about when one was strapped to the dyno. Be sure to read the whole thread https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-lied...

As for supercar fast at anything more than a standing start have a look at this thread on Inside EV's about the roll on between a P85D and a BMW M4. http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-p85d-versus-bmw...

Yes, I understand the electric motors torque reduces relative to speed. Perhaps ‘100% of the torque available instantly’ wasn’t a good way to express what I wanted to say… what I was trying to convey is there’s no waiting for the revs to build to get to peak acceleration in a Tesla as there is in an ICE.

I read the quoted thread, but it’s not really important how much power or torque a P90D makes on a dyno. In this regard, what matters is how fast it is in real situations, and here it kept up with a hard driven 458 in give and take driving (40-90ish). The 458 may have pulled away at higher speeds, but IMO anything above that speed is pretty much irrelevant on UK roads.

otolith said:

I was talking to someone the other day who was blaming their labrynthitis on a passenger ride in his son's new Model S. Apparently floored it from a standstill when he was looking down into the footwell and not expecting it and seems to have suffered some kind of injury as a result of the jerk.

I did 3 back to back Insane mode launches last time I drove it… made me feel nauseous afterwards
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