Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

-Michael- said:

If the opportunity arises would you buy another F1?

There have been plenty of opportunities. In the 15 years that I have had my car, I have been aware of at least a couple of dozen that were for sale.

[ferrisbueller]

seefarr said:

flemke said:

Based on what I have seen, people who flip cars - buying with no intention of keeping, but only temporarily to exploit a shortage of immediate supply - are doing a contemptible thing.

I can see what you're saying, but as a counterpoint look at Chris Harris when he bought a GT3 4.0 on credit. By his own admission he couldn't afford to buy it outright but he could afford to own it for a year or so if values went up. You can't say he didn't love that car as much as a man can!

Agree, by the boundaries defined above it's a Legitimate flip! (As long as it was obtained through Joe Public channels).

There will always be flippers of all varieties. I guess one has to work and be lucky enough to be in a position where they're not an issue because you're legitimately in the queue for whatever you want.

[flemke]

ferrisbueller said:

I think there are various definitions of flipping.

This one:

flemke said:

We're talking about dealers colluding with their pals - no doubt often in return for reciprocal favours - and shafting genuine customers (the people who as you rightly say want to be out there having fun driving).

I agree is unethical and piss boiling.

I think people leveraging their "status" to flip or queue jump is equally poor form.

Maybe the differentiation is whether the buyer puts meaningful miles on the car. I must admit I have some tolerance for speculators, assuming they're obtaining cars via the exact same channels normal Joe Public would. That is commodity trading. Equally, I think those who apply foresight and intelligence to get in to a car they may not be able to afford unless they can flip it at retail+costs are in a different camp.

I enquired about a GT4 (last spring and summer) and was told that my lack of previous Porsche purchases and existing demand excluded me from being able to have one. Obviously the zero mile UK cars classifieds have been well stocked since the delivery of the early cars, but at a 20% premium. They can FRO. What proportion of those are ethical or unethical flips depends of definitions. However, they're all annoying for a would be purchaser.

I would say differentiators are whether car is driven (more than a nominal amount) and also duration of ownership. If someone has owned a car for a year or years but not driven it, although one could say that it was a waste, at least the person took market risk. Flippers do everything they can do to avoid market risk.

[robinessex]

"Hallo" Lambo/Ferrari/Porsche special persons pre-order dept., "can you put me on the list for the next special you're making"
"What happened to the last one we sold you"
"I flogged it for a quick profit"
"Goodbye"

[LanceRS]

robinessex said:

"Hallo" Lambo/Ferrari/Porsche special persons pre-order dept., "can you put me on the list for the next special you're making"
"What happened to the last one we sold you"
"I flogged it for a quick profit"
"Goodbye"

Unfortunately, this will never happen. By making the 'halo' model artificially more exclusive, the manufacturer also creates more interest and publicity. Everyone is raving about the 675LT and the GT4, they are firmly in the spotlight and yet you cannot order one. How many 650S and Caymen GTS are sold to people who either cannot stretch themselves or are unwilling to pay the prices the the 'flippers' are asking.

I would love to be in a position to buy either or preferably both, but I would struggle to justify paying so much over the list price, especially when using them as intended would they devalue them so much. Shmee has already mentioned that he has concerns that he might have to restrict the use of his, purely on these grounds. In these circumstances it would ruin my enjoyment of them.

[flemke]

robinessex said:

"Hallo" Lambo/Ferrari/Porsche special persons pre-order dept., "can you put me on the list for the next special you're making"
"What happened to the last one we sold you"
"I flogged it for a quick profit"
"Great! Don't forget to bring 'round the brown envelope that we're owed. Goodbye"

EFA

[ferrisbueller]

I heard tell of Flemke's favourite manufacturer "asking" customers for limited editions to sign up to allowing the supplying dealer to facilitate the sale of the car and to be entitled to a slice of any profit.

This was IIRC in addition to mandating certain options fitted on the car itself.

[flemke]

ferrisbueller said:

I heard tell of Flemke's favourite manufacturer "asking" customers for limited editions to sign up to allowing the supplying dealer to facilitate the sale of the car and to be entitled to a slice of any profit.

This was IIRC in addition to mandating certain options fitted on the car itself.

Happened to a friend of mine.

They also told him that, regardless of his financial position, he would be required to borrow at least half the purchase price from Goodfellas Finance (I think that was the name - something like that).

[PAUL500]

flemke said:

PAUL500 said:

Will you be selling your P1 for what it cost you then? or maybe even less....

People take gambles, most win, some lose (xj220)

If you make a few squid on the sale good luck to you I say, its the buyers that set the market price not the sellers, if they are happy to pay over list then alls good, the factory are happy as they have hit their sales target at the pre determined price, the middle man has taken a punt that has paid off, and the buyer has the car they want. Win Win for all.

???

Buyers and sellers together create the market price.

Who said that a buyer is "happy to pay over list". A buyer might be willing to pay over list, but that is a different thing. I don't think there are many legitimate buyers who are happy to have to pay extra simply because some pathetic little 5hit weasled his way into temporarily getting control of a car that he never wanted but he knew that someone else wanted.

Nb: If you think that I would be "flipping" my P1, I am afraid that you don't know what the term means.

No one "needs" a P1 or any other of these cars that commands a premium on resale from new, they simply want one, and can afford it, so yes they are happy to pay the premium to get the car they want, otherwise they simply wont buy it.

Its irrelevant what term you use to describe someone who sells a car for more than they paid for it not that long ago, they are making a chunky profit pure and simple.

It seems you deem it ok for you to make a nice profit on your P1 as you have driven it around for a bit, but not the guy who is doing it for a living by speculating on such cars.

So on your definition, the person who buys your P1 is going to be far from happy in paying more than you recently paid for it? will that stop you therefore asking more than it owes you?

Double Standards.

If I were an owner of a P1, got bored with it and could sell it for more than I paid for it, would I? hell yes of course I would.

[PAUL500]

Neither am I suggesting you sell it for less than market value, or even less than you paid for it out of the goodness of your heart, because no doubt the next owner wont pass on such good fortune to the next owner down the line.

Profit is not a dirty word, it makes the world go around.

Making Starving Syrians pay £100 for a tin of food is where any contempt should be aimed, not one rich guy making another rich guy pay more for a toy than maybe he needed to.

[flemke]

PAUL500 said:

No one "needs" a P1 or any other of these cars that commands a premium on resale from new, they simply want one, and can afford it, so yes they are happy to pay the premium to get the car they want, otherwise they simply wont buy it.

Its irrelevant what term you use to describe someone who sells a car for more than they paid for it not that long ago, they are making a chunky profit pure and simple.

It seems you deem it ok for you to make a nice profit on your P1 as you have driven it around for a bit, but not the guy who is doing it for a living by speculating on such cars.

So on your definition, the person who buys your P1 is going to be far from happy in paying more than you recently paid for it? will that stop you therefore asking more than it owes you?

Double Standards.

If I were an owner of a P1, got bored with it and could sell it for more than I paid for it, would I? hell yes of course I would.

PAUL500 said:

Neither am I suggesting you sell it for less than market value, or even less than you paid for it out of the goodness of your heart, because no doubt the next owner wont pass on such good fortune to the next owner down the line.

Profit is not a dirty word, it makes the world go around.

Making Starving Syrians pay £100 for a tin of food is where any contempt should be aimed, not one rich guy making another rich guy pay more for a toy than maybe he needed to.

You seem not to grasp the difference between profits honestly acquired and profits dishonestly acquired. They are not the same. It is not a matter of "double standards", but rather a matter of the same standards applied to fundamentally different actions.

You also seem unable to grasp that some people who could afford to buy a car at RRP cannot afford the same car when the price has been jacked up by flippers who have cornered the market ahead of them.

Obviously to extort money from desperate people is vile, despicable behaviour. That does not mean that to extort money from better-off people is tolerable. "Oh, they can afford it, so what's the problem?" Is it also okay by you to rob a wealthy person?

Unless you're going to tell us that the cockroaches who pay backhanders to dealers in return for getting access to cars to flip then use their profits to buy food that they donate to starving Syrians, your attempt to draw a distinction fails. Bad behaviour cannot be justified by merely pointing out that there could be worse behaviour.

I suppose you're also going to tell us that it's fine for snipers to wade in during the first minutes of sale and hoover up hundreds of tickets to a hot concert, then flip them to genuine concert-goers for double the price? "Profit is not a dirty word", eh?

[PAUL500]

I grasp all the facts quite clearly thank you, its ok it appears for you to make a healthy profit from a legal business transaction involving the sale of a high end toy that's hardly been used, which you are now bored with/disgruntled with the constructor over, but not for others to profit by in a similar fashion, who do that form of speculating as a living?

Will you be donating your profits to a good cause instead?

If they are in fact doing this illegally, and as you are clearly quite aggrieved over the matter, then why not notify the manufacturer, the authorised dealers board of directors, and the relevant UK authorities if you have such evidence? The relevant cars are easy to trace back.

No one is being forced to pay a premium for these cars, they choose to, its not like they need them in order to get to work everyday like most on ph use their transport for. No doubt such owners have worked hard and choose to indulge themselves, good for them I say, I don't actually hear anyone who has paid such a premium complaining about it on here.

The hungry Syrians don't have a choice about paying a premium for food if they wish to survive.

[PAUL500]

flemke said:

You also seem unable to grasp that some people who could afford to buy a car at RRP cannot afford the same car when the price has been jacked up by flippers who have cornered the market ahead of them.

I don't really think any people will be losing sleep by the fact that the poor chap who could have bought a new P1 at list can no longer afford one as he now has to pay more because he was too slow off the mark.

We have both made our views clear, and I dont want to sully the thread further. You can have the final word if you wish, I wont be adding any more to the debate on this matter.

Edited by PAUL500 on Monday 11th January 12:16

[andyps]

PAUL500 said:

I don't really think any people will be losing sleep by the fact that the poor chap who could have bought a new P1 at list can no longer afford one as he now has to pay more because he was too slow off the mark.

It is unlikely to apply at P1 price levels in almost all cases, but with the Cayman GT4 surely it is possible. Or in terms of McLaren, someone may have been able to afford a 675LT at list price but not the £500k being asked for the one mentioned here recently.

My interpretation is that the flippers are buying purely to exploit the limited edition and have no intention of buying a "car" for its main purpose - a thing to drive or be driven in. They are purely interested in selling it on for a profit, thus taking away the ability of another to pay the list price, forcing them (if they wish and can afford) to pay a higher price through their profit. If that is the primary aim and by nature it excludes some then it is very unfortunate that the car market has ended up in this situation with cars as potentially affordable (and desirable to enthusiastic drivers) as the Cayman GT4 and the 911R which was covered in Autocar last week.

[jamies30]

andyps said:

They are purely interested in selling it on for a profit

Sort of like the stock market / forex / whatever ?

[andyps]

jamies30 said:

Sort of like the stock market / forex / whatever ?

Yes, but the stock market and forex are examples of things specifically intended to be traded. I was under the impression that cars were built to be driven rather than traded as a primary function - although maybe with the way some manufacturers encourage flipping that is a naive view.

[jamies30]

andyps said:

jamies30 said:

Sort of like the stock market / forex / whatever ?

Yes, but the stock market and forex are examples of things specifically intended to be traded. I was under the impression that cars were built to be driven rather than traded as a primary function - although maybe with the way some manufacturers encourage flipping that is a naive view.

The primary purpose of a dollar is to be swapped for a number of yen, not to be spent on goods or services? Not sure.

I want to invest in a tiny mining company, because I heard they mine really ethically. You* buy a bazillion shares in them because you heard they are onto a hot prospect. You drive up the prices, I can't afford them any more. True enthusiast versus flipping scum, or...?

( * not you obviously)

[robinessex]

Brings back a statement I made once before. If you want to be on the approved list, to buy the latest supercar or whatever, you're invited to a track demo. If you can't manage to extract 75% of it's potential, you can't have one! So there!

[Vaud]

robinessex said:

Brings back a statement I made once before. If you want to be on the approved list, to buy the latest supercar or whatever, you're invited to a track demo. If you can't manage to extract 75% of it's potential, you can't have one! So there!

Why?

[robinessex]

Vaud said:

robinessex said:

Brings back a statement I made once before. If you want to be on the approved list, to buy the latest supercar or whatever, you're invited to a track demo. If you can't manage to extract 75% of it's potential, you can't have one! So there!

Why?

Because it's obvious