RE: McLaren MP4-12C, Now With Added 'Phwoarr'

[marcosgt]

No car has 'soul'.

They're either well engineered or not.

McLaren seem (from the reviews, happy to eat my words if Ron Dennis cares to provide a test drive and I disagree) to have forgotten or decided against engineering in enjoyability at least at 458 levels.

M.

[P9UNK]

Also why do people want a useable everyday supercar?? Just seems a bit odd as where could you park one and use as a daily driver? Supercars are surely more for drives not everyday commuting to work or to go shopping in?
[/quote]

people who spend 160,000 on a car may use it like we might use a Golf. They will probably have six or seven cars, to these people there aren't supercars they are just what they drive, they are 'super' to us because we will never have one. There are plenty of people who will buy one and not really use it but MacLaren is setting out to sell to people who want to drive one, it is a very legitimate market and one worth going after.

[P9UNK]

Daisy Duke said:

LuS1fer said:

The GT3 version looks, if anything, like a badly penned character from Disney's "Cars".

I think the Mclaren badge is more the issue here and those who would defend it to the death. If this had a Farboud badge or Ginetta or whatever, I doubt this debate would be so intense but IMHO this car, in the looks department, could well wear such a badge.

I can see where you're coming from with this as I have to admit my opinion of the car wasn't helped when a friend said that it looked like an Evora. Now I like the Lotus, but I wasn't about to spent ₤200k on something that would be confused with one. Actually I think bas2rez may be on to something re the front of the car, although it's actually the back I have more of a problem with as it looks just a bit too Japanese.

As an aside, what exactly does the McLaren badge stand for, as I too think this may be part of the problem? Initially I had thought that it stood for quiet (yet passionate) efficiency as opposed to the Italian brand's blend of passion and flair (with a touch of chaos). However McLaren themselves seemed to want to play up Ron's OCD tendencies, I presume to give the impression that attention to detail was all important. To me (and I wasn't the only one) this just came across as a bit weird - personally I couldn't give a toss if the factory dimensions were dictated by the size of the tiles used, I wanted them to concentrate on producing a spectacular car. It wasn't that it was important per se, it was the fact that they thought it was that I found unsettling. Unfortunately this, combined with the fact that all the workers looked like automatons and appeared to be scared if you dared to try to interact with them, gave the impression of a rather sterile environment. It was hard to imagine anyone with a sense of fun working there and hence anything 'sexy' being produced by them. I doubt anyone really thinks they should try to be another Ferrari (they're not Italian for a start) but IMO McLaren need to lighten up and show that they actually do have a personality (a sense of fun might be pushing it though ). If they continue as they are they'll always be associated with capable but clinical products and forever at a disadvantage to Ferrari on the 'soul' front.

McLaren built the F1, you don't have to say anything more... the rest of your post is like tabloid speculation, I trust you have been to Maranello? If McLaren built the cars with love and passion, like say Morgan do, you would be heaping scorn on that. The 12c is undoubtedly a great car, as is the 458, both are amazingly capable. MacLaren are MacLaren, great F1 team and makers of a car that destroyed anything Italian made in the mid 90s.

[KaraK]

marcosgt said:

E21_Ross said:

KaraK said:

Daisy Duke said:

If they continue as they are they'll always be associated with capable but clinical products and forever at a disadvantage to Ferrari on the 'soul' front.

I find it interesting that BMW get consistently raved about for their precision and exacting nature and it's effect on their cars yet somehow when McLaren do it it's considered a bad thing?

I appreciate that I'm almost certainly in the minority here but I'd prefer "clinical" to "soul" when it comes to dropping 200k on car. "Soul" just sounds to me like an excuse for it to brake down alot.

I agree.

Are either of you in a position to 'drop 200K on a car'?

I don't usually advance this view, but it's easy to say anything when it's academic. Personally if I WAS (and I'm not) in a position to spend 1/5 Million pounds on a car, I'd expect it to be F'ing awesome in EVERY respect!!!!

M

No I'm not - and I can appreciate that were I able to do so I can't say for definate what my feelings would be. However all I can do is comment on how I feel at the moment. If no-one is allowed to comment unless they have the cash to buy one then most of this thread wouldn't be allowed to comment and neither would alot of the journalists who have reviewed the cars.

Without going back to check I seem to recall there being someone earlier in the thread who was intimating that he has one on order but other than that I haven't seen many people who actually seem in the position to buy either of these cars.

My post was mainly intended to play counterpoint to those claiming that the McLaren lacked the ability to excite those who can only dream of owning such cars - while I can appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea it has certainly floated my boat so far!

356speedster - I think fundamentally "soul" is an ill defined concept when applied to cars, if I were to talk about a car having "soul" to me it would be more about the experiences I had been through with the car then anything innate to the car itself.

[Daisy Duke]

P9UNK said:

fuchsiasteve said:

Also why do people want a useable everyday supercar?? Just seems a bit odd as where could you park one and use as a daily driver? Supercars are surely more for drives not everyday commuting to work or to go shopping in?

people who spend 160,000 on a car may use it like we might use a Golf. They will probably have six or seven cars, to these people there aren't supercars they are just what they drive

Indeed some are, in fact know someone who is going to use his to commute to the station.

P9UNK said:

McLaren built the F1, you don't have to say anything more... the rest of your post is like tabloid speculation, I trust you have been to Maranello? If McLaren built the cars with love and passion, like say Morgan do, you would be heaping scorn on that. The 12c is undoubtedly a great car, as is the 458, both are amazingly capable. MacLaren are MacLaren, great F1 team and makers of a car that destroyed anything Italian made in the mid 90s.

Not at all, I love the three wheeler that Morgan have recently released. I'm not sure what you mean by tabloid speculation, as I was describing my experience of McLaren and partly what put me off buying one. I was actually offering constructive criticism by saying if they weren't so hung up about trying to look uber efficient (which they aren't) they might be cut more slack.

If you're going to use the F1 analogy who would you honestly want to drive for - Ferrari with their chaotic passion, McLaren with their rather austere efficiency or Red Bull with their inventiveness and sense of fun? Personally for me it would be Red Bull as they seem to be able to win whilst still being able to have a good time - and they're an Austrian team showing that you don't have to conform to stereotypes.

Oh and just a tip, if you're going to try to be condescending you tend to undermine your argument if you can't spell the name of the manufacturer correctly.

[E21_Ross]

oh, just a thought, is there any reason behind those saying when people want a super car they want it to be flamboyant etc? are there really any other super cars out there which are a little conservative? not really, the best i can think of is perhaps an R8 V10 Audi, and that's done pretty well IMO.

you surely can't really say people who buy super cars all want this that and the other, when there are little other cars out there which have at least been on sale and been a complete flop to compare this McLaren too.

IMO, the McLaren F1 was rather conservative in the styling department, yet that went down in history as not being too shabby. funny how it's STILL being compared to by modern super cars today.

[P9UNK]

Daisy Duke said:

P9UNK said:

fuchsiasteve said:

Also why do people want a useable everyday supercar?? Just seems a bit odd as where could you park one and use as a daily driver? Supercars are surely more for drives not everyday commuting to work or to go shopping in?

people who spend 160,000 on a car may use it like we might use a Golf. They will probably have six or seven cars, to these people there aren't supercars they are just what they drive

Indeed some are, in fact know someone who is going to use his to commute to the station.

P9UNK said:

McLaren built the F1, you don't have to say anything more... the rest of your post is like tabloid speculation, I trust you have been to Maranello? If McLaren built the cars with love and passion, like say Morgan do, you would be heaping scorn on that. The 12c is undoubtedly a great car, as is the 458, both are amazingly capable. MacLaren are MacLaren, great F1 team and makers of a car that destroyed anything Italian made in the mid 90s.

Not at all, I love the three wheeler that Morgan have recently released. I'm not sure what you mean by tabloid speculation, as I was describing my experience of McLaren and partly what put me off buying one. I was actually offering constructive criticism by saying if they weren't so hung up about trying to look uber efficient (which they aren't) they might be cut more slack.

If you're going to use the F1 analogy who would you honestly want to drive for - Ferrari with their chaotic passion, McLaren with their rather austere efficiency or Red Bull with their inventiveness and sense of fun? Personally for me it would be Red Bull as they seem to be able to win whilst still being able to have a good time - and they're an Austrian team showing that you don't have to conform to stereotypes.

Oh and just a tip, if you're going to try to be condescending you tend to undermine your argument if you can't spell the name of the manufacturer correctly.

I was just checking you would spot the spelling error! (You have me on that point!) Rather than being condescending I just disagree with you, I love all the stats and nonsense of making precision engineering, and I don't make judgements about Ron Dennis as I don't know him. I'm just not on site to give a real view on what it is like working at McLaren and I don't feel the 'austere efficiency'. If you have had a McLaren experience and you explained it I might understand your point but as it is there are so many people making claims on a car they haven't even seen it is difficult to fully get your point. I am sure life at Ferrari isn't perfect, I'm sure they are not back slapping each other and talking about Tardelli's 1982 world cup goal all day... generally people are people and business is business.

[Gompo]

10 Pence Short said:

NSX comparison? I expect McLaren to sell a lot more MP4s than Honda sold NSXs.

I'd be surprised if they did, unless McLaren continue with the Mp4 name for the cars replacement in 3/4/5 years or whenever.

[Tadite]

Gompo said:

10 Pence Short said:

NSX comparison? I expect McLaren to sell a lot more MP4s than Honda sold NSXs.

I'd be surprised if they did, unless McLaren continue with the Mp4 name for the cars replacement in 3/4/5 years or whenever.

Yea no way. The NSX was the halo car of one of the largest manufacturers in the world and built for nearly 15 years. I'd be willing to bet Honda made more NSX's then McLaren has made anything with wheels.

[JonnyFive]

Tadite said:

Gompo said:

10 Pence Short said:

NSX comparison? I expect McLaren to sell a lot more MP4s than Honda sold NSXs.

I'd be surprised if they did, unless McLaren continue with the Mp4 name for the cars replacement in 3/4/5 years or whenever.

Yea no way. The NSX was the halo car of one of the largest manufacturers in the world and built for nearly 15 years. I'd be willing to bet Honda made more NSX's then McLaren has made anything with wheels.

If you only take the NSX-R (Which is really the only NSX comparable), then by the looks of things there were nearly 500 NA1 NSX-Rs made.. McLaren are planning to sell 1000 in their first year..

[LuS1fer]

Jay Leno has bought one but then he's bought most cars....

I'd also like to say McLaren are being lauded for responding to customer demands but I'd like to point out that Ferrari did too - they were flammable and now they're not....

[anonymous-user]

[JonnyFive]

I don't get why you're posting that? I said, clearly, NSX-R.

[Rich_W]

JonnyFive said:

If you only take the NSX-R (Which is really the only NSX comparable), then by the looks of things there were nearly 500 NA1 NSX-Rs made.. McLaren are planning to sell 1000 in their first year..

fk me! Could you grasp at any more McLaren branded Carbon Fibre Straws?

Ref the earlier poster who said "well the Audi V10 has done well" Yep. But it's CONSIDERABLY cheaper!
Ref the earlier poster who said "Some 12C owners will have more than 1 car" Yep. Probably have a Golf for doing the shopping in and a supercar to cain on a Sunday morning (or pose outside Canary Wharf in. Lets be honest it's gonna be Bankers/Man Utd players who can afford these in the main)
Ref the earlier poster who said "McLaren kept banging on about beating Ferrari" EXACTLY the point I've been labouring for ages. They wanted this pressure. They have to suck it up.
Ref the earlier poster who said "wonder what F1 owners think" IIRC (so stand to be corrected) Flemke not getting one. Mr Bridger (think not) Jay Leno is though.
Ref the earlier poster who said "they haven't delivered one yet" Another fair point. As if McLaren were releasing the test/press cars BEFORE deciding if it was ready for the public? I daresay this "upgrade" had been mooted for some time "just in case"

It's funny mentioning the F1. No aids, no TC, no abs, proper diff, fantastic NA engine. VERY light against it's competitors of the time. Proper manual, harder work round town. Awesome on track, Takes some skill to master, innovative with three seats and various other technologies. Le mans winner (thanks to it raining and cooling the overheating box ) All these things I think PHers would agree are brilliant. That car has everything I want in a Euromillions win.

So WHY did McLaren choose to ignore ALL that history and brand loyalty and build a car that has divided opinion so much? Why couldn't they just build a baby F1 for the 2010's with all the regulations we have today.

[JonnyFive]

Trust me, the NSX is one of my favourite cars ever.. A boyhood dream even just to get a go in one.

I was answering the poster WRT the NSX selling more than the McLaren.

[Rich_W]

JonnyFive said:

Trust me, the NSX is one of my favourite cars ever.. A boyhood dream even just to get a go in one.

I was answering the poster WRT the NSX selling more than the McLaren.

No, you were trying to rule out the vast majority of NSX' to make McLaren sound better! EVERY NSX is special. There is no 1.6 version. To only include the "R" is like only counting 12C's in Papaya Orange!

[anonymous-user]

JonnyFive said:

I don't get why you're posting that? I said, clearly, NSX-R.

in response to the discussion above. i dont care less about your comparison. i just wondered about nsx build numbers as did people above. please go find someone else to argue with

[JonnyFive]

Rich_W said:

JonnyFive said:

Trust me, the NSX is one of my favourite cars ever.. A boyhood dream even just to get a go in one.

I was answering the poster WRT the NSX selling more than the McLaren.

No, you were trying to rule out the vast majority of NSX' to make McLaren sound better! EVERY NSX is special. There is no 1.6 version. To only include the "R" is like only counting 12C's in Papaya Orange!

The normal NSX won't compete with the McLaren.. So its pointless including them.

[Gompo]

JonnyFive said:

Tadite said:

Gompo said:

10 Pence Short said:

NSX comparison? I expect McLaren to sell a lot more MP4s than Honda sold NSXs.

I'd be surprised if they did, unless McLaren continue with the Mp4 name for the cars replacement in 3/4/5 years or whenever.

Yea no way. The NSX was the halo car of one of the largest manufacturers in the world and built for nearly 15 years. I'd be willing to bet Honda made more NSX's then McLaren has made anything with wheels.

If you only take the NSX-R (Which is really the only NSX comparable), then by the looks of things there were nearly 500 NA1 NSX-Rs made.. McLaren are planning to sell 1000 in their first year..

You are correct that the NSX-R sold less, however that's totally different to the current Mp4-12c being discussed (aren't McLaren meant to be doing a lightweight version ala '-R' or 'RS'? The NSX is widely considered to be an everday supercar, much like the 12c).

[Rich_W]

JonnyFive said:

The normal NSX won't compete with the McLaren.. So its pointless including them.

1) They don't make NSX anymore. You do know that?
2) NSX was what £70K when new? R version was what £90 ish Iirc Wow that £20K makes ALL the difference

The comparisson is based purely on being "the engineers car" though at least NSX had a decent driver developing it. Who do McLaren have developing the car all the time? Chris Goodwin. The don't even use Lewis or Jenson much and they are employees!