RE: McLaren P1: powertrain
Discussion
boxerTen said:
Max_Torque said:
boxerTen said:
What it is not, is a car aimed squarely at performance in the manner of the F1.
You're going to have to help me out here, which bits exactly are not performance orientated? And do you think it will be slower than an F1, both in acceleration and track times? (MclAuto have already announced they are not chasing top speed records with this car)The P1 will of course be quicker than the F1, even with its extra weight, but remember the F1 is 20 years old.
Seeing this as a flat 190ish HP vs the extra weight is too simplistic. It is the way that power and the additional torque can be delivered and applied to the road which makes it so useful; it's probably the Porsche 918 which will define that concept and give enthusiasts the sense of why this tech is all being developed, but all three of these new hypercars will have their own take on it.
FisiP1 said:
The torque, throttle response, and efficiency advantages that electric motors in their various configurations can provide more than compensate for the disadvantage in weight.
Seeing this as a flat 190ish HP vs the extra weight is too simplistic. It is the way that power and the additional torque can be delivered and applied to the road which makes it so useful; it's probably the Porsche 918 which will define that concept and give enthusiasts the sense of why this tech is all being developed, but all three of these new hypercars will have their own take on it.
Agree 100%... Seeing this as a flat 190ish HP vs the extra weight is too simplistic. It is the way that power and the additional torque can be delivered and applied to the road which makes it so useful; it's probably the Porsche 918 which will define that concept and give enthusiasts the sense of why this tech is all being developed, but all three of these new hypercars will have their own take on it.
Just to clear a few things up....
Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
timbutjack said:
Just to clear a few things up....
Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
Top lurking!Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
FisiP1 said:
The torque, throttle response, and efficiency advantages that electric motors in their various configurations can provide more than compensate for the disadvantage in weight.
Seeing this as a flat 190ish HP vs the extra weight is too simplistic. It is the way that power and the additional torque can be delivered and applied to the road which makes it so useful; it's probably the Porsche 918 which will define that concept and give enthusiasts the sense of why this tech is all being developed, but all three of these new hypercars will have their own take on it.
It just sounds like excuses to me. We all know why petrol-electric hybrids have been given a new lease of life and it isn't for performance.Seeing this as a flat 190ish HP vs the extra weight is too simplistic. It is the way that power and the additional torque can be delivered and applied to the road which makes it so useful; it's probably the Porsche 918 which will define that concept and give enthusiasts the sense of why this tech is all being developed, but all three of these new hypercars will have their own take on it.
Throttle response on the latest turbo engines has gotten very good and let's be honest; 99% of buyers aren't going to care about that anyway.
Using BMW's S63Tu as an example, it produces peak torque of 501 lb-ft from 1500 rpm to 5750 rpm and peak power of 552 hp from 5750 rpm to 7000 rpm. What's wrong with that?
And let's not forget the limitations of the batteries: the power is not always going to be on tap but you'll still be lugging that weight around.
PunterCam said:
bobberz said:
Porsche 959, Ferrari F40, Bugatti EB110, Bugatti Veyron, Pagani Huayra. All have turbos. I guess none of them are supercars? 
Would you rather have the P1 with a 900bhp hybrid turbo, or with a 900bhp naturally aspirated engine? In all, I think there's some pretty clever tech going on here and am looking forward to seeing how it pans out for them. Don't know why everyone seems to be so cynical.
boxerTen said:
CraigyMc said:
boxerTen said:
A few reasons for a new F1 come to mind:
1. People would buy it in droves.
2. It likely wouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 12C.
3. You can't buy anything similar (dry the Huayra is 250kg heavier so not in the same class).
4. A modern n/a 6 litre V12 can produce 700-750 bhp in road tune without the turbo lag.
5. The F1 was light, under 1000kg in racing guise. I'll bet McLaren could make it even lighter today.
6. The F1 was good enough to win Le Mans, will the P1?
1. People would buy it in droves.
2. It likely wouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 12C.
3. You can't buy anything similar (dry the Huayra is 250kg heavier so not in the same class).
4. A modern n/a 6 litre V12 can produce 700-750 bhp in road tune without the turbo lag.
5. The F1 was light, under 1000kg in racing guise. I'll bet McLaren could make it even lighter today.
6. The F1 was good enough to win Le Mans, will the P1?
- Undoubtedly
- Nonsense
- Obviously. On the other hand, the car would have to compy with todays regulations and that's not light or easy.
- Name one?
- No doubt, but not road-legally.
- It's not diesel, the active aero is banned, the electric system is banned. They coundn't enter it without radically changing it (even the 12c racer is radically different than the road car)
4: Ferrari's F12, 6.3 litres, 730 bhp. And I was being deliberately conservative. Ferrari's 4.5 litre V8 already achieves 125 bhp/litre. A 6 litre V12, with its 12% smaller cylinders, should be about 4% better than that, i.e. 130 bhp/litre, which equates to 780 bhp.
4. That's not a 6 litre V12, hypothetical or not.
McLaren are the Eric Clapton of the Supercar world. Clinical, stunning, faultless...but somehow lack a little bit of the 'magic'.
I prefer all my (fanatsy) supercars to be a bit more Stevie Ray Vaughn with a bit of Albert King & BB King thrown in the mix!
I should think that a few MP4-12C owners will be looking for a power upgrade soon.
I prefer all my (fanatsy) supercars to be a bit more Stevie Ray Vaughn with a bit of Albert King & BB King thrown in the mix!
I should think that a few MP4-12C owners will be looking for a power upgrade soon.
Edited by carsnapper on Thursday 21st February 09:32
timbutjack said:
Just to clear a few things up....
Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
A good post i agree. Look forward to your next good post in the year 2020.Will it be faster than the veyron? Yes the power to weight ratio is higher
Will it out handle a veyron? Yes of course, the veyron was never good at that in the first place
Will it out handle a pagani? Most likely, Mclaren arnt stuck in the stone ages with pagani's conventional suspension setup
Will it be a better all round car than the Pagani? Yes the Mclaren wasnt build in a shed developed by 50 people
Will it be better than the F1, Yes but then it is 20 years newer.. no it wont be as light but theres something called legal certification these days and these cars have to be safe
For the last ridiculous claim, It will never be as fast as a radical.. Maybe it will, comparing the GT3 car is pointless, it only has 490bhp
The big question is how will it compare to the 918 or F150, whos knows?
pagani1 said:
I put this on my wish list with Amazon and the site crashed-Ha! Ha!
A serious hypercar for the affordistas. I reckon secondhand in 2033 would be affordable-but I'll be uninsurable by then, or maybe somewhere else!
What a technology fest. Yes please! I hope it's as emotional inside as a Huyara.
The huyara is vulgar!!! wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. i look at it and i think they tried to copy what Spyker did but failed drastically the Zonda on the other hand was by far the best. At least aesthetically.A serious hypercar for the affordistas. I reckon secondhand in 2033 would be affordable-but I'll be uninsurable by then, or maybe somewhere else!
What a technology fest. Yes please! I hope it's as emotional inside as a Huyara.
caine100 said:
It just sounds like excuses to me. We all know why petrol-electric hybrids have been given a new lease of life and it isn't for performance.
Throttle response on the latest turbo engines has gotten very good and let's be honest; 99% of buyers aren't going to care about that anyway.
Using BMW's S63Tu as an example, it produces peak torque of 501 lb-ft from 1500 rpm to 5750 rpm and peak power of 552 hp from 5750 rpm to 7000 rpm. What's wrong with that?
And let's not forget the limitations of the batteries: the power is not always going to be on tap but you'll still be lugging that weight around.
Given Mclaren's clinically technical prowess I'd be very surprised if the integrated electric motor wasn't actually a motor/generator which would trickle charge the battery when the engine isn't under load (e.g. cruising at motorway speeds). Furthermore, they state the motor's torque is used to assist in reducing engine revs for faster gearchanges - I'd suggest this implies a KERS style system where kinetic energy taken from slowing the engine down would be combined with regenerative braking to charge onboard capacitors (for rapid discharge when a big boost is required). Mclaren aren't stupid and electrical power management systems don't weigh a great deal (and can be tuned to provide a much greater diversity of intervention and power augmentation than more conventional systems), so I'd argue they've included everything they can to give an overall improvement in power delivery.Throttle response on the latest turbo engines has gotten very good and let's be honest; 99% of buyers aren't going to care about that anyway.
Using BMW's S63Tu as an example, it produces peak torque of 501 lb-ft from 1500 rpm to 5750 rpm and peak power of 552 hp from 5750 rpm to 7000 rpm. What's wrong with that?
And let's not forget the limitations of the batteries: the power is not always going to be on tap but you'll still be lugging that weight around.
As to the point about improvements in power delivery of modern turbocharged engines - there's no escaping the fact that boost pressures are limited by the size of the turbo you're running (regardless of Variable Vane technology etc). The more power you want the more air you need getting into the engine (for the same size of engine - the P1 has a 111 hp hike over the 12C), and to ensure engine longevity (you don't want your turbo running to breaking point) the easiest way is to go for a larger turbo, which is what Mclaren appear to have done. The larger the turbo the greater the exhaust pressure required to spool it up (generally called lag) - while modern technology has largely seen the demise of turbo lag, for high performance applications there is no getting away from even a small amount of it. Electrical motor augmentation allows that gap to be filled at the bottom of the rev range, and if it's done well enough you should hardly even notice its intervention. The exceptionally large torque band (combined with very high speed and very quick pick up) of electric motors (compared with IC engines) also means they can be introduced at any point in the rev range to augment IC engine power (a bit like the sport button or sport kick-down on automatic cars), or in simpler terms, like fitting a Nitrous Oxide system which will recharge its own bottle as you drive along the road. Mclaren even give you your own switch for that big kick up the arse Fast and Furious moment!
Petrol/electric hybrids make sense for normal everyday driving and cars with sights set a little lower than 200mph+ (if only to placate the greens). They also make a great deal of sense for extreme performance cars (and not for green reasons, though it doesn't hurt marketing them that way!) - it allows the unavoidable power delivery problems associated with extracting huge power from (relatively) small capacity engines to be masked to give the impression of a much larger n/a engine with less of the associated consumption and emissions problems, and greater flexibility in power delivery.
CraigyMc said:
r1ch said:
timbutjack said:
Reasonable stuff most people would agree with
A good post i agree. Look forward to your next good post in the year 2020.Certainly timbutjack's post added more to this thread than your post. Axe to grind?
C
Mark-C said:
CraigyMc said:
r1ch said:
timbutjack said:
Reasonable stuff most people would agree with
A good post i agree. Look forward to your next good post in the year 2020.Certainly timbutjack's post added more to this thread than your post. Axe to grind?
C
Where's that whoosh parrot thing I should be subjected to?
Sorry r1ch.
C
Max_Torque said:
Also, these cars are bespoke, so MclAuto will make a nice little sum on retrofitting / upgrading over the years! (Sir wants the latest battery and another 20Kw, certainly sir, that will NOT be a problem, i'll send the truck/plane/Chinook to come get your car immediately sir....... ;-)
Good point. I read somehwere that whenever an F1 is sold anywhere in the world, it most likely goes back to McLaren for some level of refitting almost immediately.Also, how many Zondas are now exactly as they were when they were first built?
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