VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[George111]

Bodo said:

George111 said:

Bodo said:

George111 said:

... VAG ... Europe's largest and most profitable car maker

Uh, where does that come from? What about Daimler and BMW? Less profitable?

Just Googled it . . . VAG $21.5b profit in 2012

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/columnists/mik...

Daimler were on $7.3b and BMW on $6.8b

Could you not have used Google yourself ?

I couldn't possibly google where your perception comes from; but I now see it is based on figures pre-emissions scandal and three years old.

Daimler 2015: €8.711bn
BMW 2015: €6.396bn
VW 2015: annual report not published yet, but Q1 to Q3 net profit is €3.990bn
Full 2015 is likely below 133% of that.

Of course this last year will be much lower as they're making allowances for the fines and rectification work . . . they're still they largest car manufacturer by far and will be the most profitable again.

[Monkeylegend]

Buster73 said:

Monkeylegend said:

First I've heard about it. What actually happened?

Start at page 1 and keep going by the time you get back to this page you'll have a damn good idea.

There's always one who spoils it.

[scarble]

George111 said:

Of course this last year will be much lower as they're making allowances for the fines and rectification work . . . they're still they largest car manufacturer by far and will be the most profitable again.

So what you're saying is they've artificially reduced their 2015 profit to make allowances for all the fines and rectification work they've yet to pay for?
I'm not sure it works like that?

[George111]

scarble said:

George111 said:

Of course this last year will be much lower as they're making allowances for the fines and rectification work . . . they're still they largest car manufacturer by far and will be the most profitable again.

So what you're saying is they've artificially reduced their 2015 profit to make allowances for all the fines and rectification work they've yet to pay for?
I'm not sure it works like that?

Have you done any research or are you just asking ?

Have a read of this from 2015: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/91664/toyota-h...

If their profits for this year are very much lower then what would have caused that when they've sold a similar number of cars ? What do you thin might be the reason ?

[scarble]

George111 said:

Have you done any research or are you just asking ?
Have a read of this from 2015: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/91664/toyota-h...
If their profits for this year are very much lower then what would have caused that when they've sold a similar number of cars ? What do you thin might be the reason ?

I'm asking, as your wording implies that it's something they did deliberately, but I'm really not sure they can do that.
Perhaps the work they've already done has impacted their profits for this year and the bulk of the fines and rectification, yet to come, will impact their profits into next year and possibly further?

An article for May 2015 one assumes is giving figures for FY14 although what start and end dates they use surely varies, either way May 2015 is pre-emissions scandal.

Yes they were the biggest in Europe, but so far it's too early to say if they will remain that way, if profits will drop and how long it will take for them to recover, if they ever do.

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that the impact on sales was low/none but a quick google now shows they're down by ~20%?

With sales figures it really depends what periods you're comparing, they may have gone up compared to the previous month but maybe sales always go up in certain months? Maybe the previous year sales had been low everywhere?

Edited by scarble on Saturday 9th April 11:11

[Bodo]

scarble said:

George111 said:

Of course this last year will be much lower as they're making allowances for the fines and rectification work . . . they're still they largest car manufacturer by far and will be the most profitable again.

So what you're saying is they've artificially reduced their 2015 profit to make allowances for all the fines and rectification work they've yet to pay for?
I'm not sure it works like that?

The 2015 report is still to be published; it is delayed this year, they usually do mid March for the previous financial year ending 31/12/.
VW needs to lay capital aside to pay for the aftermath of the emissions scandal, which could likely eat many years of profit. There are rules that make this necessary, but since the price of the aftermath is unknown yet, there is some freedom to interpret the outlook. One thing is clear: the amount assigned from the 2015 result will not cover the entire cost.

[FiF]

Just catching up on some articles in Handelsblatt, which I don't read for car news, (hands in PH membership card) but spotted this, which they are claiming as an exclusive.

If it's old news, checked back a week before posting, apologies but you may need to register to read the full report.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/404/ressor...

Essentially German Govt tests, by German Federal Motor Transport Authority specifically, have shown that only VW have cheated the emissions tests, all other manufacturers met German law.

If it's a repost, apologies, but worth reading.

[xjay1337]

So how does that article explain many other manufacturers being proven to fail to meet emissions standards that they claim to?

[FiF]

xjay1337 said:

So how does that article explain many other manufacturers being proven to fail to meet emissions standards that they claim to?

But the article claims that vehicles from other manufacturers showed strange anomalies but that these were within legal limits, at least according to their source. It's up to the full report to explain the detail when published.

[Sheepshanks]

xjay1337 said:

So how does that article explain many other manufacturers being proven to fail to meet emissions standards that they claim to?

Do the others fail to meet them even during re-runs of the official tests?

I thought the issue is that they're all way out in real world use but rather than bother trying to engineer a way to pass the tests, VW just cheated.

[xjay1337]

Sheepshanks said:

Do the others fail to meet them even during re-runs of the official tests?

I thought the issue is that they're all way out in real world use but rather than bother trying to engineer a way to pass the tests, VW just cheated.

I am not sure, I just know that they don't meet them.
So the problem is, reading into your post, is that it doesn't matter if they are out in the real world (which let's say they all are), it's just that VW managed to pass the official tests?

I assume the other manufacturers (Renault and Vauxhall etc) have to go through the same tests (in the EU at least) as VW.

FiF said:

But the article claims that vehicles from other manufacturers showed strange anomalies but that these were within legal limits, at least according to their source. It's up to the full report to explain the detail when published.

I'm not sure, I don't have the time to check the sources. I've posted earlier some links to WhatCar findings, not sure what these were.

[Mr2Mike]

xjay1337 said:

So the problem is, reading into your post, is that it doesn't matter if they are out in the real world (which let's say they all are), it's just that VW managed to pass the official tests?

And could therefore sell diesel engined cars in North America, where other brands could not.

[Willhire89]

Gio G said:

I do think they will open themselves up for those that complain that the fix has made their car slower/consume more etc..

Whether you can ask Audi not to implement this service action is probably down to the dealer. It will be in their interest to do it and change Audi UK back for the work, however no doubt invalidates warranty if not carried out.

G

My Amarok is out of warranty and serviced independently so VAG will not see it unless I take it there or they can force me to take it in - I don't think we will really be able to prove that the mpg is worse or anything else is hobbled.

I could have it put on the rollers before and after but in reality I would much rather it was just left alone......

[funkyrobot]

I'm amazed at how quiet this issue has become.

It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.

Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.

[Bodo]

funkyrobot said:

I'm amazed at how quiet this issue has become.

It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.

Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.

Just because it's no longer reported about in the boulevard press, doesn't mean it's gone quiet. The industry press reports daily about the emissions scandal.

Use Google News search about Volkswagen emissions. A link for you:

 https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=Volkswagen+emissions#q=Volkswagen+emissions&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 

Hundreds of articles in the last 24h. Welcome to the internets.

[mollytherocker]

Bodo said:

funkyrobot said:

I'm amazed at how quiet this issue has become.

It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.

Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.

Just because it's no longer reported about in the boulevard press, doesn't mean it's gone quiet. The industry press reports daily about the emissions scandal.

Use Google News search about Volkswagen emissions. A link for you:

 https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=Volkswagen+emissions#q=Volkswagen+emissions&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 

Hundreds of articles in the last 24h. Welcome to the internets.

The guy has a point though. VW have kicked this into the longest grass possible.

People are getting bored. The strategy is working.

[Blakewater]

funkyrobot said:

I'm amazed at how quiet this issue has become.

It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.

Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.

I think the point made above about other car manufacturers engineering a way to pass the tests sums it up to some degree. Volkswagen cheated but, in the UK at least, they didn't cheat customers directly. They were cheating tests that everybody understands are unrealistic and pointless anyway because no cars are as clean on the road as they are in the tests. The cars aren't dangerous day to day in tangible way.

On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.

People have forgotten much bigger things that have had more bearing on immediate safety when driving cars, such as Toyota's unintended acceleration issue. It all soon becomes yesterday's news. I'm not so horrified by it all I wouldn't buy another Volkswagen Group product.

[jshell]

Still believe it's almost purely anti-European sentiment as was the BP Macondo disaster law-suits. Had that been Exxon, it wouldn't have cost half as much. Obama has been very anti-British from the start, it's no stretch to imagine that extends to the rest of Europe.

I wouldn't be returning a VAG for re-work until I fully understood the ramifications of the work they are proposing, and I can't see anyone being 'forced' to!

[skyrover]

Blakewater said:

On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.

Bit of a generalization.

Have a look back the thread for a history of defeat devices. You will see American companies have been clamped down just as hard by the EPA.

[Megaflow]

skyrover said:

Blakewater said:

On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.

Bit of a generalization.

Have a look back the thread for a history of defeat devices. You will see American companies have been clamped down just as hard by the EPA.

Correct. EPA have even had a go at Caterpillar in the past, on more than one occasion if memory serves.

It might have slipped down the radar of the general public, but it will not slip down EPA's radar and will will cost VW a lot of money when, if, it is ever concluded.