VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations
Discussion
Blakewater said:
I think the point made above about other car manufacturers engineering a way to pass the tests sums it up to some degree. Volkswagen cheated but, in the UK at least, they didn't cheat customers directly. They were cheating tests that everybody understands are unrealistic and pointless anyway because no cars are as clean on the road as they are in the tests. The cars aren't dangerous day to day in tangible way.
On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.
People have forgotten much bigger things that have had more bearing on immediate safety when driving cars, such as Toyota's unintended acceleration issue. It all soon becomes yesterday's news. I'm not so horrified by it all I wouldn't buy another Volkswagen Group product.
They did cheat customers directly. Due to the brainwashing that has been evident over the last few years, and the incentives to buy 'zero tax' cars, this has made people consider things like mpg and emissions. It's why so many car makers now use emissions as a selling point. Company cars are even taxed based on emissions, amongst other things. Therefore, people have made choices based on the information they have been given.On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.
People have forgotten much bigger things that have had more bearing on immediate safety when driving cars, such as Toyota's unintended acceleration issue. It all soon becomes yesterday's news. I'm not so horrified by it all I wouldn't buy another Volkswagen Group product.
You and I know that these vehicles will never be as clean as they are made out to be. We also understand that things like catalytic converters have made vehicle emissions a lot better. Diesel engines by their very nature are dirty, and no amount of recycling or filtering of the exhaust output will ever make them totally clean. However, to the average car buyer, the shiny adverts stating 65 mpg and emissions of 'x' are enough to convince them their car is cleaner than the competition.
Issues like this also knock on to the culture of diesel buying in general - You don't want a petrol sir, they drink fuel and cost a lot of money to run. So, even though you only do 5000 miles a year around town, you need a diesel as it will save you £xx.
It worked on my mum and dad. My mum has had a Golf GT from when it was new in 2007. It has just done 30k miles.
funkyrobot said:
I'm amazed at how quiet this issue has become.
It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.
Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.
Certainly VW UK sales recovered in March from the drops of previous months.It's as if people have forgotten that this company cheated.
Funny really. I guess some people really don't care and will buy certain brands regardless.
We bought (took PCP for the additional discount and then withdrew) a Tiguan a few weeks before the news came out so I'm quite sensitive about the impact on residuals. I'd be happy to take another VW on some kind of finance but wouldn't risk buying one again.
heebeegeetee said:
funkyrobot said:
no amount of recycling or filtering of the exhaust output will ever make them totally clean.
That must apply to every vehicle under the sun, even horse-drawn ones.Megaflow said:
skyrover said:
Blakewater said:
On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.
Bit of a generalization.Have a look back the thread for a history of defeat devices. You will see American companies have been clamped down just as hard by the EPA.
It might have slipped down the radar of the general public, but it will not slip down EPA's radar and will will cost VW a lot of money when, if, it is ever concluded.
Few people buy cars specifically because they care about their impact on the environment. They're interested in the effect on their wallets and no one is going to be charged any extra for having a car affected by the emissions issue.
Blakewater said:
Megaflow said:
skyrover said:
Blakewater said:
On top of that, it's the Americans making the biggest fuss and people see them as a litigious bunch who like to make life hard for foreign companies to protect their inferior domestic products, so they don't take them too seriously. They may even admire someone who screws them over a bit.
Bit of a generalization.Have a look back the thread for a history of defeat devices. You will see American companies have been clamped down just as hard by the EPA.
It might have slipped down the radar of the general public, but it will not slip down EPA's radar and will will cost VW a lot of money when, if, it is ever concluded.
Few people buy cars specifically because they care about their impact on the environment. They're interested in the effect on their wallets and no one is going to be charged any extra for having a car affected by the emissions issue.
I can assure you there was no "Anti-British sentiment" here in the US in regards to the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
Rather, the timing of this event coincided with then skyrocketing petrol prices, so there was already an "Anti Oil Company" sentiment sweeping across the country. This was made worse by BP's ham-fisted public relations efforts in the wake of the disaster. Add to that BP CEO Tony Hayward and his "woe-is-me" attitude, whinging about how he "wanted his life back" in the days after the disaster.
Seeing a multi-millionaire CEO of a wildly profitable oil company playing the victim at a time when recession-ravaged working class Americans were paying more than ever for petrol was the final straw that brought out the metaphorical torches and pitchforks.
Getting back on topic, in the past few years Navistar were banned by the EPA from selling trucks for a while due to having engines that were not emissions compliant.
They had to re-engineer their trucks to take Cummins engines, shut their engine factories down and re-engineer their engines to make them emissions compliant.
Navistar is a US owned company, based in Chicago and employs thousands of people.
If the US government is prepared to do that I think they are demonstrating that they are sticking to their principles. Based on this I would expect Volkswagen to be told by the EPA that they have to pay the fines they knew that they would be required to pay for non-compliance and to fix the vehicles in service.
They had to re-engineer their trucks to take Cummins engines, shut their engine factories down and re-engineer their engines to make them emissions compliant.
Navistar is a US owned company, based in Chicago and employs thousands of people.
If the US government is prepared to do that I think they are demonstrating that they are sticking to their principles. Based on this I would expect Volkswagen to be told by the EPA that they have to pay the fines they knew that they would be required to pay for non-compliance and to fix the vehicles in service.
MadmanO/T People said:
Hello. PH's resident Yank here.
I can assure you there was no "Anti-British sentiment" here in the US in regards to the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
Except the US Media and Obama suddenly started referred to it as "British Petroleum" which was its name from the 90's. Its had two other names since then.I can assure you there was no "Anti-British sentiment" here in the US in regards to the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
98elise said:
Except the US Media and Obama suddenly started referred to it as "British Petroleum" which was its name from the 90's. Its had two other names since then.
I don't think that was "anti-British" as such but rather pro-American - making it clear that it wasn't an American company. Whilst the US equivalent of the Daily Mail readership might have briefly picked up a generic anti-British sentiment from that, I don't think anyone with half a brain did.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 14th April 08:04
Sheepshanks said:
Certainly VW UK sales recovered in March from the drops of previous months.
Have you seen the number of deals they are offering to get product out of the door though? I've piled in to the 120 a month deal to lease a 35k Passat Alltrack ferchrissakes! 
If you look at the lease deals thread everything super cheap is a Volkswagen. Alltracks, Golf R estates, Tiguans, Polos, Sciroccos, you name it, they are bunging them out for buttons.
Their bottom line must be taking a massive hit.
kambites said:
98elise said:
Except the US Media and Obama suddenly started referred to it as "British Petroleum" which was its name from the 90's. Its had two other names since then.
I don't think that was "anti-British" as such but rather pro-American - making it clear that it wasn't an American company. Whilst the US equivalent of the Daily Mail readership might have briefly picked up a generic anti-British sentiment from that, I don't think anyone with half a brain did.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 14th April 08:04
Public anger was mostly about a big oil company seemingly acting with impunity (as has been the perceived case historically)
hornetrider said:
Sheepshanks said:
Certainly VW UK sales recovered in March from the drops of previous months.
Have you seen the number of deals they are offering to get product out of the door though? I've piled in to the 120 a month deal to lease a 35k Passat Alltrack ferchrissakes! If you look at the lease deals thread everything super cheap is a Volkswagen. Alltracks, Golf R estates, Tiguans, Polos, Sciroccos, you name it, they are bunging them out for buttons.
Their bottom line must be taking a massive hit.
) was clearly a mistake. Are they that cheap now on everything else? I've only been aware of personal leasing over the last couple of years and the deals don't seem unusually cheap compared to what I've seen before.
Indeed when we looked at, and eventually bought, Tiguan mid-last year (so well before the emissions stuff) there were deals headlined at £89/mth that had just expired - we bought one, and having joined a Tiguan forum there are people who got them end 2014 / early 2015 at lower total cost than they've been available for recently.
kambites said:
98elise said:
Except the US Media and Obama suddenly started referred to it as "British Petroleum" which was its name from the 90's. Its had two other names since then.
I don't think that was "anti-British" as such but rather pro-American - making it clear that it wasn't an American company. Whilst the US equivalent of the Daily Mail readership might have briefly picked up a generic anti-British sentiment from that, I don't think anyone with half a brain did.
ks. Anyone with half a brain spotted Obama's anti-British sentiment from the start. Anyone in the oil industry who saw the headlines of 'British Petroleum', a name not used for many years, spotted this was an opportunity for them.funkyrobot said:
They did cheat customers directly. Due to the brainwashing that has been evident over the last few years, and the incentives to buy 'zero tax' cars, this has made people consider things like mpg and emissions. It's why so many car makers now use emissions as a selling point. Company cars are even taxed based on emissions, amongst other things. Therefore, people have made choices based on the information they have been given.
Yes, but road tax and company car tax are exactly as advertised. Nobody (apart from maybe the government) has been cheated in that regard - people got and are still getting exactly what they were promised.Sure, mpg is nowhere near advertised, and that may disappoint many customers. But it's measured in accordance with the official test, as far as I'm aware nobody has claimed they've cheated that test, and I don't think their figures are any less realistic (or more optimised for the test) than other manufacturers' figures.
funkyrobot said:
However, to the average car buyer, the shiny adverts stating 65 mpg and emissions of 'x' are enough to convince them their car is cleaner than the competition.
As far as I know it's only NOx emissions they "cheated" the test for, and I've never seen an advert quoting NOx figures. I'd be amazed if a single customer's decision was based on a car's official test NOx figures.Fastdruid said:
MPG drives CO2 and reducing NOx typicaly involves worsening MPG. So if you are cheating NOx you are cheating the VED bands and Company car BIK etc.
Yes, hence me saying that they were possibly cheating the government by cheating the test (by putting cars into lower VED and company car BIK bands), but not cheating customers.skyrover said:
Most American's have a positive perception of the Brits in my experience of living there.
Public anger was mostly about a big oil company seemingly acting with impunity (as has been the perceived case historically)
That was my perception too, although the Americans I work with tend towards the more rational, better educated end of the spectrum. Public anger was mostly about a big oil company seemingly acting with impunity (as has been the perceived case historically)
The Americans generally rather like the British, in a faintly condescending sort of way. Had it been an American company spilling millions of barrels of oil off our cost, you'd have got far more of a "bloody American companies, the US government is far to corrupt to hold them accountable" sort of reaction.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 14th April 16:50
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