RE: Chris Harris video: Toyota GT 86
Discussion
j123 said:
Where was the press in the last 8 or ten years begging and advocating hard for the manufactures to build smaller cars with smaller, wheels, and more usable everyday handling? No one was pressing for them to make cars like this. Indeed most of the press was banging on about 300/400/500/600/700 hp mega beasts that could drive the ring so fast and never fall off due to massive wheel and tires combinations.
I wish we had this level of grass roots desire for makers to get back to their roots years ago. Quite frankly it seems like toyota had more passion and drive towards making this happen than did the press. j
Agreed. Thing is, mags like Evo have complained about large wheel/tire combos but the general buying public tend to not read Evo; they want cars with big wheels for the "bling" factor and the manufacturers (perhaps not too coincidentally and most definitely not for free) offer a wide range up upgrade rim options, plus bodystyles that make the car look odd on anything less than 19s. I wish we had this level of grass roots desire for makers to get back to their roots years ago. Quite frankly it seems like toyota had more passion and drive towards making this happen than did the press. j
But the mags themselves are a bit complicit in all of this. There have been individual calls for more involvement and less speed (see James Mays' many articles, Gordon Murray's editorials about what makes for a truly engaging car in Evo, and the recent blogs/editorials from M5/McLaren/Aventador/etc roadtests which state that today's cars are simply too fast for the majority of road conditions), but the simple fact is they are in a business to make money. I'm guessing that for most people, numbers are the simplest way to understand "progress," and if you're a young motoring enthusiast raised with a Top Trumps mentality, do you buy the TopGear with Mays's column or do you go with the track shootout between your dream supercars in Mag X? If they're in the same magazine, it'd be like buying Playboy for the articles. Many of us been conditioned to think that faster is automatically better, without an understanding of what it takes to get the control and feedback interfaces to feel "just right."
Stuart said:
To be fair that does come across in the script, or at least it did to me. There's an assessment of throttle response, driving position, noise, cabin etc etc, it's just that most of the visual imagery was of the thing hanging its back end out. Chris also made the point that there was little point commenting on the ride as the quality of the circuit's surface was so good by comparison to the road.
That also might mean that a real road, with its less than perfect surface, could serve up less grip than that track and thus every bit as much fun.Guibo,
"But the mags themselves are a bit complicit in all of this. There have been individual calls for more involvement and less speed (see James Mays' many articles, Gordon Murray's editorials about what makes for a truly engaging car in Evo"
I would say the magazines are rather more than complicit. Indeed citing the odd editorial is hardly about what I am speaking. It up to the press and its journalists to call for changes in there chosen subject within the body of the articles, to have some overall narratives as any good newspaper or journal or serious magazine must.
But here in this case, 90% of what we got was the ring the ring and the ring and huge daily converge of the biggest, baddest, fastest, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, VW, and whatever the most blingy thing was out that day. Its become insane really to see pics of the latest variation on a Aston or a Buggati for the 1000th time.
Honestly the only journalist that has made any effort to send an editorial message of this sort is steve sutcliffe who has been really screaming over the last year or so for cars to lighten up and get more fun to drive- and he does so on a consistent basis. j
"But the mags themselves are a bit complicit in all of this. There have been individual calls for more involvement and less speed (see James Mays' many articles, Gordon Murray's editorials about what makes for a truly engaging car in Evo"
I would say the magazines are rather more than complicit. Indeed citing the odd editorial is hardly about what I am speaking. It up to the press and its journalists to call for changes in there chosen subject within the body of the articles, to have some overall narratives as any good newspaper or journal or serious magazine must.
But here in this case, 90% of what we got was the ring the ring and the ring and huge daily converge of the biggest, baddest, fastest, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, VW, and whatever the most blingy thing was out that day. Its become insane really to see pics of the latest variation on a Aston or a Buggati for the 1000th time.
Honestly the only journalist that has made any effort to send an editorial message of this sort is steve sutcliffe who has been really screaming over the last year or so for cars to lighten up and get more fun to drive- and he does so on a consistent basis. j
Edited by j123 on Thursday 9th February 20:34
j123 said:
Honestly the only journalist that has made any effort to send an editorial message of this sort is steve sutcliffe who has been really screaming over the last year or so for cars to lighten up and get more fun to drive- and he does so on a consistent basis. j
Not so sure about that. A few years back, he conducted Britain's Best Driver's Car test and concluded the winner largely on the basis of A to B pace (time) on a section of the Isle of Man. He also authored last year's Grip Challenge, with the GT-R taking the dry victory over the GT3 RS, and the Megane 250 Cup and RS5 tied for the wet portion. What was lost in that article (and apparently only revealed via blog) was that most of the drivers in that test coveted the keys to the BMW 1M. Some have questioned his choice of the E60 M5 over the F430 and now more recently he says a reader should not buy an F10 M5 on the basis of the existence of the GT-R (cue acceleration, braking, and timed twisty tests). I enjoy his editorial style, but I wouldn't necessarily put him above the fray.Guibo said:
Not so sure about that. A few years back, he conducted Britain's Best Driver's Car test and concluded the winner largely on the basis of A to B pace (time) on a section of the Isle of Man. He also authored last year's Grip Challenge, with the GT-R taking the dry victory over the GT3 RS, and the Megane 250 Cup and RS5 tied for the wet portion. What was lost in that article (and apparently only revealed via blog) was that most of the drivers in that test coveted the keys to the BMW 1M. Some have questioned his choice of the E60 M5 over the F430 and now more recently he says a reader should not buy an F10 M5 on the basis of the existence of the GT-R (cue acceleration, braking, and timed twisty tests). I enjoy his editorial style, but I wouldn't necessarily put him above the fray.
Guibo,Oh please do not get me wrong, I think his ability to explain the context of the abilities of cars in comparison to one another on varying roads/conditions is rather very POOR bordering on plain inability to remeber what he wrote or drove prior. I quote from his blog on the Evora vs Cayman S:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatthewheel/arc...
"It also steers more sweetly than the Cayman, which is some achievement, while its all-round double wishbone suspension provides a level of composure that is just breathtaking, even in the soaking wet conditions in which most of this test took place. What you notice most jumping from one to another is the extra agility and composure of the Evora when you’re really going for it. It changes direction with such precision and immediacy, all the Cayman driver can do is watch in awe. It’s that well sorted, is the Evora, yet at the same time it’s that much more comfortable than the Cayman as well."
Witness his article comparing the Evora to the Cayman S and then how now the evora NOW is just so-so in his latest article. Saying maybe it was the "snow tires" when trying to race it against others on a track?
ITs just the part about him advocating on a consistent basis for cars like the Toyota and Ginenta that I like so much. He's really been the only one really making an effort on this. j
Grovsie26 said:
This car would be awesome with a nice K20 from a FD2. Imagine that. 
I see a rerun of the "why does it have to have a rotary?" debate 
If Toyota and Subaru have done their job properly (and the freakishly low centre of gravity suggests they might have) an inline engine will be too tall to fit!
This car couldn't have arrived at a better time. I got an Elise S last year and it's just a joy to drive. OK, my Fireblade would waste it but, to be honest, I get more fun from driving the car because of the way it feels and the feedback it gives.
I had an RX-8 a few years ago but sold it because I was fed up of putting petrol in it. It was great to drive though, and this new car sounds like it will be very similar but without doing 17mpg in town or on a B road.
I don't think I'll be buying one but it deserves to sell in big numbers.
And just when the mainstream manufacturers seemed to have forgotten about making true drivers' cars.
I had an RX-8 a few years ago but sold it because I was fed up of putting petrol in it. It was great to drive though, and this new car sounds like it will be very similar but without doing 17mpg in town or on a B road.
I don't think I'll be buying one but it deserves to sell in big numbers.
And just when the mainstream manufacturers seemed to have forgotten about making true drivers' cars.
geepee said:
Kawasicki said:
Let's not get carried away here, there are plenty of massively grippy cars which have amazing flow and handling balance.
What for £25k new?I don't have the answers, I'm just debating on an internet forum!
to everyone that does not have children under 5........................
2 SEATS IS NOT FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHRRRRRRRRRRRA RGHARGHARGAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Now i have got that off my chest i feel much better.
2 SEATS IS NOT FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHRRRRRRRRRRRA RGHARGHARGAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Now i have got that off my chest i feel much better.
jorders said:
I got an Elise S last year and it's just a joy to drive. OK, my Fireblade would waste it but, to be honest, I get more fun from driving the car because of the way it feels and the feedback it gives.
..and a fast bike like that is difficult to 'exploit' on the road with one eye on self-preservation and one eye on licence retention...MC Bodge said:
monthefish said:
Joe911 said:
monthefish said:
Looked like the brake discs were tiny - I'm sure upgrades will become available very quickly (looked like there was plenty of space for bigger items)
Indeed - also the calipers looked small. Isn't a disc/caliper upgrade pretty expensive - does it not usually mean changing the wheels to make room for the bigger brakes.The report highlighted the brakes were lacking during hard use and, very broadly speaking, bigger brakes will be better in this regard.
monthefish said:
The report highlighted the brakes were lacking during hard use and, very broadly speaking, bigger brakes will be better in this regard.
As of course will pads capable of operating at higher temperatures. I dare say the brakes would be fine on the road, anyway, which is where most of these will spend the huge majority of their time.
monthefish said:
No idea.
The report highlighted the brakes were lacking during hard use and, very broadly speaking, bigger brakes will be better in this regard.
I am not sure how much that would translate to real use.The report highlighted the brakes were lacking during hard use and, very broadly speaking, bigger brakes will be better in this regard.
That car had probably spent the full day being absolutely hammered around a twisty track back motoring journalists.
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