£10k gbox bill on 4yr old Audi. Was it ever fit for purpose?
Discussion
Happy Jim said:
Willy Nilly said:
So, what you're saying is, that modern automatic transmissions have been designed to be less reliable, almost impossible to maintain and prohibitively expensive to repair. Them, when they do fail, the manufacture will look for any excuse to wash their hands of them?
Nope, designed the same and probably with the same failure rate as older boxes, however the trend is for car builders to "buy in" complete gearboxes from the manufacturers. When the 50p O ring seal fails the workshop follow the prescribed diagnostic routine......remove entire box, ship box back to manufacturer, replace with new box (manufacturer strips/refurbs/and puts it in the "replacements" pile. Any of them fail during warranty period would result in the gearbox manufacturer picking up all the costs! Outside of that and you are in the boat with the OP!Jim
Should be able to service them, change the oil etc which will extend their lives. There are no "sealed for life" engines.
10k gearbox bill from Audi, typical. I'm sure a decent specialist will sort it for you, properly i might add too, for less than half that.
I'm not feeling the need to comment on anything else tbh. None of this is, or should be, of any surprise. After the above, either sell on or enjoy the car.
I'm not feeling the need to comment on anything else tbh. None of this is, or should be, of any surprise. After the above, either sell on or enjoy the car.
Just to throw my own experience in FWIW.
My Skoda Fabia vRS Mk2 needed a new engine at nearly 5 year old but under 35k miles - nearly two years out of warranty. After a bit of a fight with Skoda they eventually agreed to cover 60% of the cost of the engine (a new engine cost £5k) as a goodwill contribution - given the fact it had FMSH and low miles.
Mine was not modified at all though. Also the engine failures with the Mk2 vRS were pretty common so that helped my case.
My Skoda Fabia vRS Mk2 needed a new engine at nearly 5 year old but under 35k miles - nearly two years out of warranty. After a bit of a fight with Skoda they eventually agreed to cover 60% of the cost of the engine (a new engine cost £5k) as a goodwill contribution - given the fact it had FMSH and low miles.
Mine was not modified at all though. Also the engine failures with the Mk2 vRS were pretty common so that helped my case.
paintman said:
As you raise the ZF box in the Land Rover I assume you're aware of this from Ashcroft Transmissions in respect of the ZF 4HP22 as used in the RRC.
"Q.I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?
A. The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.
We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/frequently...
That said, I've done a couple of fluid & filter changes on mine and - so far - all OK. In the event of it playing up & on the basis I would have nothing to lose then first action would be fluid & filter change.
Whist I know nothing about Audi gearboxes it was of interest that the OP's fault manifested straight after a fluid change. In their position I'd try a further fluid & filter change to see if it made any difference.
I believe the ZF6 and 8 require a new sump and filter as part of the service , by removing the bottom of the 'box you remove any debris that will have settled there , I've been quoted £360 for a oil change on my ZF8 "Q.I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?
A. The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.
We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/frequently...
That said, I've done a couple of fluid & filter changes on mine and - so far - all OK. In the event of it playing up & on the basis I would have nothing to lose then first action would be fluid & filter change.
Whist I know nothing about Audi gearboxes it was of interest that the OP's fault manifested straight after a fluid change. In their position I'd try a further fluid & filter change to see if it made any difference.
Edited by paintman on Thursday 16th March 22:32
Drew106 said:
Just to throw my own experience in FWIW.
My Skoda Fabia vRS Mk2 needed a new engine at nearly 5 year old but under 35k miles - nearly two years out of warranty. After a bit of a fight with Skoda they eventually agreed to cover 60% of the cost of the engine (a new engine cost £5k) as a goodwill contribution - given the fact it had FMSH and low miles.
Mine was not modified at all though. Also the engine failures with the Mk2 vRS were pretty common so that helped my case.
I've had a good experience with Skoda on goodwill well out of warranty as well , had an ABS pump done FOC a few years back, unfortunately i feel that Skoda have become much more "Audi like" in recent years My Skoda Fabia vRS Mk2 needed a new engine at nearly 5 year old but under 35k miles - nearly two years out of warranty. After a bit of a fight with Skoda they eventually agreed to cover 60% of the cost of the engine (a new engine cost £5k) as a goodwill contribution - given the fact it had FMSH and low miles.
Mine was not modified at all though. Also the engine failures with the Mk2 vRS were pretty common so that helped my case.
If I read correctly, this remap was done by some random bloke who used to advertise and be endorsed at an Audi main dealer? Please do correct me if I am wrong, but if not, this is total comedy. VAG spending X millions in vehicle development for some tuning wizard to come along and get an advertising spot in one of their dealerships. I can just picture the marketing now 'S6 performance for £250 on your existing car - call Dave on 07987 654321' Where people actually believing that this would not invalidate a manufacturer warranty?
Although the sarcasm above, this is probably the only hope in hell of getting any goodwill from Audi - if you have proof or documentation that was at one of their dealerships? If you have it contact head office. Also factor in it depends on who their service and repair bookings are, if they are flat out the price is going to remain 10k most likely, if they have openings they may give you a discount by reducing the amount they rip you off - they need the work and margin is still there.
Honestly though, if you where the dealership manager and someone came in who used a non manufacturer approved map on a car which developed a fault, would you offer any form of discount on the repair? Its clear in main dealer T&C that these miraculous bargain performance gains and are at your own risk and invalidate the manufacturer warranty.
Personally I don get it - unless people go with an approved map if available (typically 1.5k+) why would you risk it on any new car under warranty let alone one which has high repair bills. The maths and risk profile doesn't compute.
Although the sarcasm above, this is probably the only hope in hell of getting any goodwill from Audi - if you have proof or documentation that was at one of their dealerships? If you have it contact head office. Also factor in it depends on who their service and repair bookings are, if they are flat out the price is going to remain 10k most likely, if they have openings they may give you a discount by reducing the amount they rip you off - they need the work and margin is still there.
Honestly though, if you where the dealership manager and someone came in who used a non manufacturer approved map on a car which developed a fault, would you offer any form of discount on the repair? Its clear in main dealer T&C that these miraculous bargain performance gains and are at your own risk and invalidate the manufacturer warranty.
Personally I don get it - unless people go with an approved map if available (typically 1.5k+) why would you risk it on any new car under warranty let alone one which has high repair bills. The maths and risk profile doesn't compute.
The remap will have had nothing to do with the failure as said by many people before , the only thing the remap did was made it easy for Audi to reject any goodwill.
Remap or not they were under no obligation to repair it foc.
Plenty of stock dsg gearboxes fail, they dont fail because of stress they fail because they are hugely complicated bits of kit not ideally suited to an automotive application
Remap or not they were under no obligation to repair it foc.
Plenty of stock dsg gearboxes fail, they dont fail because of stress they fail because they are hugely complicated bits of kit not ideally suited to an automotive application
liner33 said:
Plenty of stock dsg gearboxes fail, they dont fail because of stress they fail because they are hugely complicated bits of kit not ideally suited to an automotive application
Not disputing that they are complicated, however I thought that they were developed specifically for automotive applications?They've been around a long time, my 2003 Audit TT had one fitted and although mine was OK, I was aware of issues with the mechatronic unit back then.
Durzel said:
KTF said:
Out of interest, if you buy a car that was remapped in the past but changed back to standard before it was sold and the buyer was none the wiser, would that just be bad luck (assuming still within warranty) or is there a date/time stamp when the remap was done?
It would be pretty annoying if you bought a car that had been mapped in the past (before being returned to factory/sold) and something went wrong with it but only then you find out it has no warranty. There must be a few cars in that state.
Caveat emptor really.It would be pretty annoying if you bought a car that had been mapped in the past (before being returned to factory/sold) and something went wrong with it but only then you find out it has no warranty. There must be a few cars in that state.
You'd probably have comeback against Audi themselves if they took a car in P/X and subsequently sold it to you, assuming they would even take a TD1 (or whatever code) flagged car as P/X anyway.
Gary C said:
I know a few Porsche buyers have bought cars from opc's then taken them back for warranty work only to have it refused due to a recorded cat 4, 5 or 6 over rev by the previous owner.
I don't see how they could refuse on that basis. They are supposedly hugely fussy in that area when buying in a car. If they didn't check properly, there's no way they could refuse warranty work due to their negligence.
Tim
liner33 said:
The remap will have had nothing to do with the failure as said by many people before , the only thing the remap did was made it easy for Audi to reject any goodwill.
Remap or not they were under no obligation to repair it foc.
Plenty of stock dsg gearboxes fail, they dont fail because of stress they fail because they are hugely complicated bits of kit not ideally suited to an automotive application
How do you know the remap didn't cause, or at least was a major contributory factor? Fact is, a remap allows the engine to provide more torque than the gearbox is designed and lifed for.Remap or not they were under no obligation to repair it foc.
Plenty of stock dsg gearboxes fail, they dont fail because of stress they fail because they are hugely complicated bits of kit not ideally suited to an automotive application
Without dismantling the thing and doing a forensic analysis to determine which component(s) failed, and if that was as due to over torque, wrong oil, or just a random failure, it's impossible to say. So without that being done (expensive, specialist, and time consuming in itself), it's perfectly reasonable to pin the blame on the remap as it's by far and away the most likely cause.
By the sound of the OP's symptoms, it sounds like the clutches aren't engaging properly/smoothly. That's symptomatic of the clutches being worn out, caused by them having too much torque put through them.
I'm on Audi's side with this one, and Audi "haters" aside, it's ridiculous to justify any other position.
CraigT007 said:
It's a small and petty pleasure received from such actions, but my brother who was looking at an RS6 has commenced looking elsewhere, I've cancelled the T6 kombi (or was just about to order) in favour of a transit, my mate was on brink of Q7, he's back looking at the X5... these are only slight tickles behind my otherwise grimmace... did/am I taking it personally? Yes, probably shouldn't but I do feel let down by a brand I've 'supported' (?) for 30years.
How many of your previous purchases and these speculative purchases were/would be purchases from new? That is all Audi is interested in, second-hand means absolutely zilch.ChemicalChaos said:
Just out of interest, what would happen if a low spec car was remapped but still made less power/torque than a bigger engine in the model range that used the same gearbox, and the gearbox subsequently failed? It would be hard to claim it was overstressed....
Typically they don't. Even when the "same" gearbox, they aren't.I have a massive spreadsheet for Audi gearboxes, even the same engine car can have 5 or 6 different model gearboxes.
That said Getrag or whoever actually makes the gearbox will have a torque limit. You might be very much closer to the limit with the bigger engine cars than the smaller ones.
Edited by Fastdruid on Friday 17th March 17:16
Fastdruid said:
That said Getrag or whoever actually makes the gearbox will have a torque limit. You might be very close to the limit with the bigger engine cars than the smaller ones.
This is why mine isn't remapped, I have an Aisin auto box and my car is pretty much the heaviest and most powerful application it was fitted to so I'm not risking a map even though it is tempting cheap extra horsepower.I used to work for a parts company and I've seen a few OEMs try to avoid paying out warranty where aftermarket parts have been fitted but generally there are industry bodies who will get behind you if you want a fight. Unfortunately when you want some kind of out-of-warranty goodwill payment if you've serviced outside the network, used aftermarket parts, or modified the car then you're going to struggle to get anywhere unless you're a really good customer of a single dealer and they take your side.
On a separate note, a colleague here had Audi make an 80% contribution to a new DSG box in his Q5 as a goodwill gesture - it was out of warranty but with full Audi history and bought from a Swiss Audi dealer, I believe the total bill was approaching £9k so I'm not surprised at the price quoted.
ZX10R NIN said:
I've pretty much remapped every car I've owned & the map has never caused an issue with the car, but I have seen my mate have two gearboxes in his RS5 over the last three years & that's a standard one.
That's unpossible, I have it on Internet gospel that one has done 2500 hrs, and it's perfect I tell you 
modern audis are unreliable garbage sold by dealers like mobile phones on 3 year plans. there is no goodwill because all they care about us signing you up for the new 2.5 percent improved model with slightly altered grill and upgraded instagram filter for another 299 a month. the reason they want ten grand for the gearbox is to encourage you to scrap the car and think 'if iI put that money into a new car i'll have a warranty' - they want these kind of HUGE BILLS AHEAD scare stories because it keeps the nervous nellies frightened into their never ending PCP deals, which is why their dealers are now just glorified oil and filter change shops.
I ran a D2 S8 to over 200k - 50k on a transmission is just appaling, but audi don't give a monkeys because once you arent on their 3 year PCP treadmill your value as a customer is zero, they will simply fleece you fir as much as they can to try and make their pcp and service plan deals seem like good value. The fact is all these '16k' repairs are BS figures inflated to maie people say 'thank god i had a warranty!' instead of asking why a 50k plus product that used to be engineered for 150k+ miles suddenly falls apart at 5 years and then magically costs its entire value to repair.
the whole thing is a scam put together after the beancounters at mercedes worked out that their cars were so well engineered they never made any money from people buying new cars or replacing parts - I can remember my mum;s old boss wheeling a SL in to complain the courtesy light bulb had blown. and the dealer replacing it fior free and apologising. Then look what happened - the whole industry now runs on a 3 year lifespan of warranty + oil and filter service plan, then another 2 years for the approved used scheme to prop up the PCP residuals and offload the ex lease cars into the used market, 5 years suddenly things break that cost as much as the car is worth...
I ran a D2 S8 to over 200k - 50k on a transmission is just appaling, but audi don't give a monkeys because once you arent on their 3 year PCP treadmill your value as a customer is zero, they will simply fleece you fir as much as they can to try and make their pcp and service plan deals seem like good value. The fact is all these '16k' repairs are BS figures inflated to maie people say 'thank god i had a warranty!' instead of asking why a 50k plus product that used to be engineered for 150k+ miles suddenly falls apart at 5 years and then magically costs its entire value to repair.
the whole thing is a scam put together after the beancounters at mercedes worked out that their cars were so well engineered they never made any money from people buying new cars or replacing parts - I can remember my mum;s old boss wheeling a SL in to complain the courtesy light bulb had blown. and the dealer replacing it fior free and apologising. Then look what happened - the whole industry now runs on a 3 year lifespan of warranty + oil and filter service plan, then another 2 years for the approved used scheme to prop up the PCP residuals and offload the ex lease cars into the used market, 5 years suddenly things break that cost as much as the car is worth...
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