Is RWD over hyped?

[physprof]

I'm not advocating lariness as inherently great - just observing that even I, as mere humble mortal, can see, feel and experience a distinct difference between our various RWD cars and previous FWD ones (poor examples indeed).

So there are layers of difference IMHO - even our old 318i on 65 section tyres gave a better driving through a corner feel, versus the pulled through a corner feel than the numerous FWD cars I driven inc. those borrowed, hired etc. give.

[heebeegeetee]

physprof said:

I'm not advocating lariness as inherently great - just observing that even I, as mere humble mortal, can see, feel and experience a distinct difference between our various RWD cars and previous FWD ones (poor examples indeed).

So there are layers of difference IMHO - even our old 318i on 65 section tyres gave a better driving through a corner feel, versus the pulled through a corner feel than the numerous FWD cars I driven inc. those borrowed, hired etc. give.

Fair enough. I agree with you that the differences can be felt, but I also think that many other factors would/could come into play too, and might be just as relevant.

I think some of the nicest cars we owned were our Mk2 Golf Gti's, which I think had a lovely blend of handling and ride quality allied to the power that the engine gave.

I'd like to try my Boxster on smaller rims and narrower tyres with more profile, so that I can access more readily the niceties of rwd. I really do think that the modern obsession with grip is spoiling a lot of cars, and given the difficulties many have faced this winter on the roads, I do sometimes wonder just how 'fit for purpose' our cars are nowadays.

[CDP]

heebeegeetee said:

physprof said:

I'm not advocating lariness as inherently great - just observing that even I, as mere humble mortal, can see, feel and experience a distinct difference between our various RWD cars and previous FWD ones (poor examples indeed).

So there are layers of difference IMHO - even our old 318i on 65 section tyres gave a better driving through a corner feel, versus the pulled through a corner feel than the numerous FWD cars I driven inc. those borrowed, hired etc. give.

Fair enough. I agree with you that the differences can be felt, but I also think that many other factors would/could come into play too, and might be just as relevant.

I think some of the nicest cars we owned were our Mk2 Golf Gti's, which I think had a lovely blend of handling and ride quality allied to the power that the engine gave.

I'd like to try my Boxster on smaller rims and narrower tyres with more profile, so that I can access more readily the niceties of rwd. I really do think that the modern obsession with grip is spoiling a lot of cars, and given the difficulties many have faced this winter on the roads, I do sometimes wonder just how 'fit for purpose' our cars are nowadays.

Not to mention the hard ride. I blame the rappers with 22" rims who are more interested in show than go.

[physprof]

I would confess that whilst the Z4M is on stock from factory wheels both the 528 and SLK are on a size up from factory. That would contribute a modicum of difference I see but there are other factors melded in there too.

Only change immenient in our household is likely to be appearance of 4WD come summer when prices drop...

[a_bread]

heebeegeetee said:

smaller rims and narrower tyres with more profile, so that I can access more readily the niceties of rwd. I really do think that the modern obsession with grip is spoiling a lot of cars, and given the difficulties many have faced this winter on the roads, I do sometimes wonder just how 'fit for purpose' our cars are nowadays.

Couldn't agree more

[hotmelt]

It often is 16s on a 318i - often a 225/50x16 .......however, like with any BMW you can option it up to the sky.

Now, if you look at the wheels on the BMW used in that video clip you will note that it is running on Style 119s with a 225/45x17 tyre. You can spec them on a 318i of that age. That is why the Mondeo has tyres no wider....but an inch larger in diameter
[/quote]

It is 99 percent 16inches, one can see with bare eyes too. Not fair from Top gear, they were strangely Ford biased.

[g60luke]

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

[young_bairn]

Am I the only one who enjoys a bit of torque steer

[thinfourth2]

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

[RobM77]

This "it's RWD so it must be great" thing is just a huge mis-understanding. Nobody has ever said that on here as far as I know.

Someone saying "I'll only buy RWD cars" is completely different to them saying "RWD makes a car good". Just because there's an overlap where plenty of FWD cars are better to drive than some RWD cars doesn't mean that fans of RWD cars are misguided and it doesn't matter which end is driven - that's just a complete lack of logic.

[hotmelt]

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

[young_bairn]

hotmelt said:

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

I must have missed that telegram.

[RobM77]

young_bairn said:

hotmelt said:

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

I must have missed that telegram.

Yes - didn't you know? It makes no difference at all to a car with less than 250-300bhp which end is driven You can't tell!

[thinfourth2]

hotmelt said:

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

Errrmmm Nope

http://www.retroscenemag.com/post/Front-Wheel-Driv...

A silly example i know but a bit more then 300Bhp

[Wills2]

I had a go in a racing clio Cup and it was bloody fantastic (the ones at palmer's place in bedford) infact as an average driver you could have masses of fun in it, and still feel like you were making progress such was the grip on offer and the control FWD gives the average driver.

With a RWD car you are always suspious that it will swap ends on you (well I am), a well sorted front driver is a safe predicable way of covering ground quickly.

But of course the driving gods of PH have no need for such handling traits as they can balance a car on the throttle and then steer using their right foot.

Edited by Wills2 on Tuesday 4th January 12:13

[g60luke]

thinfourth2 said:

hotmelt said:

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

I had a 250bhp FWD Golf, and it was shocking at putting it down.
And based on your argument, you think that a well set up FWD car is better/as good as a well set up RWD car? Hmmmmmmm

[RobM77]

Wills2 said:

I had a go in a racing clio Cup and it was bloody fantastic (the ones at palmer's place in bedford) infact as an average driver you could have masses of fun in it, and still feel like you were making progress such was the grip on offer and the control FWD gives the average driver.

With a RWD car you are always suspious that it will swap ends on you (well I am), a well sorted front driver is a safe predicable way of covering ground quickly.

But of course the driving gods of PH have no need for such handling traits as they can balance a car on the throttle and then steer using their right foot.

Edited by Wills2 on Tuesday 4th January 12:13

A decent FWD racing setup is awesome I've spent five years racing FWD and four racing RWD and the control of the car using weight transfer mid-corner is near identical. However, there are differences, which in my experience are:

In FWD you've got the constant problem of worsening understeer as you come on the throttle. Because of this you have to get the turn-in absolutely spot on to achieve a little rear slip to negate the inevitable understeer on corner exit. Racing FWD therefore gives a lot less room for error if you want to do a fast lap.

FWD racing cars are virtually unspinnable, thanks to the fact that you just use lots of power to get out of oversteer. With RWD, backing off causes oversteer and accelerating causes understeer but the opposite also occurs (moreso at lower speed) because of the torque going to the rear wheels. With FWD backing off always causes oversteer, and power always causes understeer. Ergo, if you lose the back end big style at high speed you can just accelerate and the car will straighten itself. Useful! The only time I ever spun a FWD car was going down a steep hill (Paddock Hill bend), where the power of my car wasn't enough to overcome gravity. Check out the famous Plato video for an example of this - nothing to do with great car control, you just floor it and wait

The setup in a FWD car has to be rather extreme in order to go fast. You actually deviate from the theoretical ideal for maximum grip to make the car driveable through the corners; by deliberately reducing rear grip you end up going faster. With RWD, the setup can be much more natural and logical because of the inherent balance in the corners, both through weight distribution and power application.

Bringing that back to the road, this is why I take RWD everytime on the road. To drive a FWD car to satisfaction (i.e. balanced and adjustable) requires so much commitment and knife edge balance that it's just not practical on the public road; most of the time on the road at sensible speeds you end up with a balance tending to understeer, which I find frustrating and dull - FWD only seems to come alive for me at track speeds. The more laid back inherently balanced nature of RWD works best in my opinion on the public road, due to the lower speed and lack of sighting through corners. For the track, I enjoy FWD and RWD, but for the public road, whilst I enjoy FWD (because I just love driving!), I'm not sure I'd want to own one as a main car - perhaps only as a fun hot hatch for occasional driving. FWD is essentially just a cheaper way to make cars and to increase the interior space, it was and is never intended for driving enjoyment or satisfaction. Some manufacturers have made some bloody brilliant evolutions of shopping cars (Integra Type R, Golf GTi, 205 GTi), but really they're Tesco Finest - they're the very best made of a cheap and affordable product. Some are so good that they're better than many more expensive sports cars, of course, just as with Tesco Finest wine. However, whilst these sorts of cars are wonderful on a budget, if you don't mind a secondhand car (something you can't do with decent wine!) or have more money, then RWD really is the only way forward for a proper driver's car. In my opinion Look at Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus (apart from the M100 Elan), BMW, Mercedes etc (or Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Honda, Yamaha...) - they don't make RWD cars for historical reasons, it's because they drive better. The original Elise in fact had the same power and weight as a 205 GTi 1.9, but would never have been designed FWD. Lambo have been influenced (or polluted!) by Audi thinking, so they're the exception to the rule.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 4th January 12:48

[havoc]

a_bread said:

heebeegeetee said:

smaller rims and narrower tyres with more profile, so that I can access more readily the niceties of rwd. I really do think that the modern obsession with grip is spoiling a lot of cars, and given the difficulties many have faced this winter on the roads, I do sometimes wonder just how 'fit for purpose' our cars are nowadays.

Couldn't agree more

Thirded. And fourthed. Even on the modestly-shod (195/55/15) ITR I can easily find myself going too quickly and not really noticing. The (comparatively-mundane) MkV Golf GTi just isn't THAT interesting at license-friendly speeds - good all-rounder, but you don't get to feel the chassis until you're REALLY pushing!



Rob - good post above, but I'd question ONE part of it:

You seem to be inferring that to enjoy a car you HAVE to be travelling near the limit. I agree that gives you the biggest 'buzz', but with some cars (the right ones, IMHO), you can enjoy the car almost as much at more moderate speeds. Feedback, poise, responsiveness, precision, even ride quality (well, moreso body control without being over-stiff - great examples being Elise, NSX, DC2 ITR, 205GTi and 306GTi-6. MX-5 too, in a way). And don't forget throttle-response! (Serious point though)

I'd summarise it overall as "precision" - precise controls, perfectly and linearly responsive, on a platform which treads the perfect balance between ride quality and grip to give you permanent contact with the tarmac without everything getting all 'woolly' when you up the pace. For me feedback is an important part of that, for others less so.



One of the best drives I ever had in the S2000 was when I was punting along at ~7/10ths - it was far more to do with the time and place (N.York Moors pre-dawn, and the way the car was responding to my inputs, than it was about outright speed or balancing the car on a knife-edge.

[thinfourth2]

g60luke said:

hotmelt said:

thinfourth2 said:

g60luke said:

I hear McLaren are going FWD next season in F1.
Apparently Adrian Newey has been missing a trick there.
Plus there will be more room for Lewis' legs in the cockpit.

An ferrari are binning all their chassis designers as all they need do is make it RWD and it will be utterly brilliant they were just wasting money with all these folk looking at suspension geometry

For your information Fwd is for up to 250-300 bhp .

I had a 250bhp FWD Golf, and it was shocking at putting it down.
And based on your argument, you think that a well set up FWD car is better/as good as a well set up RWD car? Hmmmmmmm

No i'm saying that anyone who worships anything that is RWD is basically a moron.

At no point have i ever said FWD is better then RWD.

I have said that RWD on its own does make a good car, nor does it make a car that will oversteer everywhere

Edited by thinfourth2 on Tuesday 4th January 13:16

[superman84]

RWD is great, FWD can be very good, but for me its all about AWD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6lIaGZA4w