RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
Laurence Stroll is right in that the push to EVs is politically motivated; for the anti-car politicians,the fact that EVs are expensive and impractical is actually an attraction, as it will force people off the road. Otherwise if it was really about the environment, they would be pushing full steam ahead with synthetic fuels, which are a vastly superior net zero solution than EVs.
Aston or more to the point Lance Stroll has got it right, who in their right mind would buy an Aston that sounds like a milk float.
Jaguar has abandoned any thought of making proper cars, that will not bode well for them.
Volvo already seem to have abandoned ICE cars, so after owning many Volvo cars over the years I will not buy another one, as I do long distances and cannot be bothered to wait in a queue to charge and waste a lot of time.
Jaguar has abandoned any thought of making proper cars, that will not bode well for them.
Volvo already seem to have abandoned ICE cars, so after owning many Volvo cars over the years I will not buy another one, as I do long distances and cannot be bothered to wait in a queue to charge and waste a lot of time.
Dave200 said:
Marcodude said:
And how do you suggest people in apartments are going to charge their car? You really think the government is going to provide 50-60 chargers on every residential and non residential street. Let's get real. Phev will be the way forward for the masses who don't have the capacity to charge every night. The idea that ICE will be dead in 25 years is ridiculous, especially when you consider that record migration levels and a housing crisis forcing people into more apartments which only makes it harder to provide charging infrastructure to the masses.
I find EV owners are pretty much all the same. Live in a nice freestanding house with a pretty good income and say " look it's easy, why can't everyone do this".
We're over a decade away from the deadline from the deadline to stop new ice production and there's already a solution for this. Ubitricity has installed 10,000+ charging points in lampposts. Are you suggesting that there's no hope of scaling something like this or additional solutions appearing in the next 11 years?I find EV owners are pretty much all the same. Live in a nice freestanding house with a pretty good income and say " look it's easy, why can't everyone do this".
Edited by Marcodude on Saturday 13th April 01:18
EV is the future but PHEV should be the present and near future. 25 years won't be enough to solve these issues. Won't even get into issues such as the benefits culture in Britain were the government will potentially have to pay for people on income support to charge their car. Not to mention upkeep and vandalism of what will be a non-stop continued shortage of charging stations.
PHEV will be the way forward and I can almost guarantee we will not see a ban on ICE cars in 2035. Just like we witnessed with the scrapped 2030 target.
Edited by Marcodude on Saturday 13th April 12:24
MrBunny said:
Laurence Stroll is right in that the push to EVs is politically motivated; for the anti-car politicians,the fact that EVs are expensive and impractical is actually an attraction, as it will force people off the road. Otherwise if it was really about the environment, they would be pushing full steam ahead with synthetic fuels, which are a vastly superior net zero solution than EVs.
The push to make wearing seatbelts mandatory was also politically motivated, or needing to pass a test to get a driving license. And 'they' are pushing full steam ahead for synthetic fuels, but for aviation. All flights leaving Singapore will have to have a % of synthetic fuel from 2026 onwards for example. NDNDNDND said:
It always amuses me about the EV crowd is the way 'magic future battery technology' is a perfectly acceptable answer to hand-wave away any concerns about usability
That would be me then I suppose.Perspectives change when you are tasked with delivering something vs commentating on it.
I don't think I hand-wave away the challenges of electrification.
What I do believe is that we have sufficient time before the end of the transition to address limitations on usability for the least suitable candidates.
I also believe that any individual in the UK that can't or won't adopt EV will have access to a petrol ICE or hybrid option for the remainder of their driving lives.
Every base is covered, we don't actually need anything more.
I see that you you would prefer we continue to look for ways to live with vast amounts of waste heat but do it without releasing net CO2.
Wouldn't we all love that to be a reality.
Shall we take a quick look at what you are asking for?
The 2022 flowchart I just posted says that we use over 400 TWh of energy each year for the road and rail sector.
Appreciating that a TWh is a unit of measure that most people might not be familiar with, to put some perspective on that, the total grid demand today is about 300 TWh, maybe slightly higher.
Of the 400 TWh of fuel to power road and rail, about 300 TWh goes to cars, i.e. about the same as total grid demand.
The electrification pathway, because of its extremely high energy efficiency can drop that demand from 300 TWh of fuel to below 100 TWh of electricity.
Without reducing passenger miles.
Now try it for e-fuel, unicorn eyedrops, whatever.
But don't bother addressing the waste heat thing, hell, actually massively increase it per mile because that's what all of these pathways do.
Total energy demand for cars now goes up from 300 TWh to say 600 TWh.
Brilliant, we've just tripled the electricity demand on the grid, yehaa!
And not even touched electrification of any other sector yet.
Does this sound like a plan grounded in any form of reality?
Marcodude said:
Ubitricity have already said that what they have managed to install is " a drop in a very large ocean". They openly admit that not everyone is going to be able to charge their car on a public street even with a best case charging scenario.
EV is the future but PHEV should be the present and near future. 25 years won't be enough to solve these issues. Won't even get into issues such as the benefits culture in Britain were the government will potentially have to pay for people on income support to charge their car. Not to mention upkeep and vandalism of what will be a non-stop continued shortage of charging stations.
PHEV will be the way forward and I can almost guarantee we will not see a ban on ICE cars in 2035. Just like we witnessed with the scrapped 2030 target.
I trust you are aware that the 2030 interim date was one of BJs silly ideas to separate us from the EU. Now were are back in line with what was always planned. You've been conned if you think it is anything different.EV is the future but PHEV should be the present and near future. 25 years won't be enough to solve these issues. Won't even get into issues such as the benefits culture in Britain were the government will potentially have to pay for people on income support to charge their car. Not to mention upkeep and vandalism of what will be a non-stop continued shortage of charging stations.
PHEV will be the way forward and I can almost guarantee we will not see a ban on ICE cars in 2035. Just like we witnessed with the scrapped 2030 target.
Edited by Marcodude on Saturday 13th April 12:24
It is a harsh reality that our poorest do not own or run cars and that is not bout to change.
EV charging will only be rolled out as fast as demand dictates. Currently a little over 1M EVs amongst 32M ICEs.
MrBunny said:
Laurence Stroll is right in that the push to EVs is politically motivated; for the anti-car politicians,the fact that EVs are expensive and impractical is actually an attraction, as it will force people off the road. Otherwise if it was really about the environment, they would be pushing full steam ahead with synthetic fuels, which are a vastly superior net zero solution than EVs.
Taking into account GT9's (automotive engineer) fully detailed analysis contained within these pages would you care to elaborate. Marcodude said:
Ubitricity have already said that what they have managed to install is " a drop in a very large ocean". They openly admit that not everyone is going to be able to charge their car on a public street even with a best case charging scenario.
EV is the future but PHEV should be the present and near future. 25 years won't be enough to solve these issues. Won't even get into issues such as the benefits culture in Britain were the government will potentially have to pay for people on income support to charge their car. Not to mention upkeep and vandalism of what will be a non-stop continued shortage of charging stations.
PHEV will be the way forward and I can almost guarantee we will not see a ban on ICE cars in 2035. Just like we witnessed with the scrapped 2030 target.
That was just a desperate political stunt to for the government to pretend to listen to the concerns of the public during cost of living crisis. The reality was it made pretty much zero difference as ZEV Manadate became law. There will be very few new pure ICE cars available for sale in the UK in 2030 anyway, and even then their sale will be capped to 20% of a manufacturer’s total sales for the year, so will be quite strongly disincentivised. That 20% limit will continue to reduce between 2031 and 2035 too, so really doesn’t mean much at all to the average buyer of new cars. EV is the future but PHEV should be the present and near future. 25 years won't be enough to solve these issues. Won't even get into issues such as the benefits culture in Britain were the government will potentially have to pay for people on income support to charge their car. Not to mention upkeep and vandalism of what will be a non-stop continued shortage of charging stations.
PHEV will be the way forward and I can almost guarantee we will not see a ban on ICE cars in 2035. Just like we witnessed with the scrapped 2030 target.
Edited by Marcodude on Saturday 13th April 12:24
Rotorsforme said:
Volvo already seem to have abandoned ICE cars, so after owning many Volvo cars over the years I will not buy another one, as I do long distances and cannot be bothered to wait in a queue to charge and waste a lot of time.
'The Greek philosopher Theophrastus once said, “Time is the most valuable thing a man can spend.” This is one of the most powerful truths about the value of time, which is that something that cannot be held, seen, or touched is one of mankind’s most priceless treasures.'JJJ. said:
Rotorsforme said:
Volvo already seem to have abandoned ICE cars, so after owning many Volvo cars over the years I will not buy another one, as I do long distances and cannot be bothered to wait in a queue to charge and waste a lot of time.
'The Greek philosopher Theophrastus once said, “Time is the most valuable thing a man can spend.” This is one of the most powerful truths about the value of time, which is that something that cannot be held, seen, or touched is one of mankind’s most priceless treasures.'Mine miraculously fill up whilst I'm asleep.
Nomme de Plum said:
MrBunny said:
Laurence Stroll is right in that the push to EVs is politically motivated; for the anti-car politicians,the fact that EVs are expensive and impractical is actually an attraction, as it will force people off the road. Otherwise if it was really about the environment, they would be pushing full steam ahead with synthetic fuels, which are a vastly superior net zero solution than EVs.
Taking into account GT9's (automotive engineer) fully detailed analysis contained within these pages would you care to elaborate. 1. Present me with say £1T to build and commission the infrastructure required solely for UK cars.
2. Stop time for say 50 years or more to get the job done before 2050.
3. Zero the carbon footprint of man extracting the materials and manufacturing all the wind turbines, electrolysers, carbon capture farms and hydrocarbon synthesis plant.
If he can't do that, then the deal is off.
Not only do we need to 'find' 600 TWh of electricity supply each year, we've got to turn all that that energy into hydrogen or captured CO2 and put it in some fancy blenders.
Did I mention the importance of eliminating waste heat?
GT9 said:
J4CKO said:
Some think you can just convert your existing car to Hydrogen because they have seen an article about Toyota running a GR Yaris on it, it’s like “There you go, carry on as normal, just with Hydrogen, job jobbed”.
Corolla actually!
The car in the image now runs on liquid hydrogen, because the version with gaseous H2 (shown) was just too much of a ball ache to refuel quickly.
And boy did it need refuelling often.
Fuel of the future indeed.
https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-showcases-experi...
I think people take it as that’s the future, not that a massive company are hedging their bets and having a horse in every race ?
Rotorsforme said:
Jaguar has abandoned any thought of making proper cars, that will not bode well for them.
As someone who has owned at least 3 XJs in the past, I am fascinated to see what happens with Jaguar. They are totally all-in on BEV, they have no plan B as far as I am aware. I believe that new models will be shown this year and go on sale in 2025, and they will all be BEV. The ICE models are already being discontinued (I believe that you cannot order a factory-built XE or XF any more).It's certainly a different strategy to Toyota, who seem to be more pragmatic about the whole thing.
J4CKO said:
Was on about this one, fair to say Toyota are doing quite a bit of Hydrogen research.
https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-showcases-experi...
I think people take it as that’s the future, not that a massive company are hedging their bets and having a horse in every race ?
Note the blanked-out rear compartment.https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-showcases-experi...
I think people take it as that’s the future, not that a massive company are hedging their bets and having a horse in every race ?
If they want to bring a 2-seater 'weekend' hatchback to the market, good luck to them.
Will there be sufficient hydrogen access to refuel this car in the UK?
My feelings towards these type of cars are driven by expectation management.
NDNDNDND said:
It always amuses me about the EV crowd is the way 'magic future battery technology' is a perfectly acceptable answer to hand-wave away any concerns about usability, and that in hardly any time at all there'll be 600-mile solid-state batteries weighing 2kg and every lamppost will sprout a megawatt charger, and yet mention any potential future advancement in any alternative and they'll scoff until they turn inside out.
Here's an interesting video about generating methanol from atmospheric CO2 using a catalyst and sunlight:
We aren’t going to be burning fuel in vehicles in future. It’s that simple. You still produce additional GWP burning your very expensive carbon capture fuel. Carbon capture is only for sequestration and even then it’s a last resort. It’s game over for burning fuel in cars. Carbon capture fuel is the hand wavey solution that is not viable at all. Here's an interesting video about generating methanol from atmospheric CO2 using a catalyst and sunlight:
How do today's supercar manufacturers differentiate their product in an EV-only future? We are starting to see that the quantity of power and performance on it's own just isn't the answer - especially here in the UK, where you can't even use full throttle on a new hot hatch for more than a few seconds without risking prison time. We're also just beginning to see disillusionment, with reviews and opinions that the new mega-powerful, AWD, computer-guided techfests just leave people cold compared with what came before.
That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
MrBunny said:
Laurence Stroll is right in that the push to EVs is politically motivated; for the anti-car politicians,the fact that EVs are expensive and impractical is actually an attraction, as it will force people off the road. Otherwise if it was really about the environment, they would be pushing full steam ahead with synthetic fuels, which are a vastly superior net zero solution than EVs.
Conspiracies. I like it. Tell me how the "they" plan to fill the enormous revenue gap from taxes on personal transport in this mad plan to force everyone off the road.Clivey said:
How do today's supercar manufacturers differentiate their product in an EV-only future? We are starting to see that the quantity of power and performance on it's own just isn't the answer - especially here in the UK, where you can't even use full throttle on a new hot hatch for more than a few seconds without risking prison time. We're also just beginning to see disillusionment, with reviews and opinions that the new mega-powerful, AWD, computer-guided techfests just leave people cold compared with what came before.
That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
I think that depends on whether chasing global sales volumes for new cars requires the sort of differentiation and immersive experience you (and I) seek.That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
We are nearly all missing out on the unique and immersive experience that is hunting for food with a bow and arrow, do we even know what we are missing out on?
Clivey said:
How do today's supercar manufacturers differentiate their product in an EV-only future? We are starting to see that the quantity of power and performance on it's own just isn't the answer - especially here in the UK, where you can't even use full throttle on a new hot hatch for more than a few seconds without risking prison time. We're also just beginning to see disillusionment, with reviews and opinions that the new mega-powerful, AWD, computer-guided techfests just leave people cold compared with what came before.
That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
Apart from the money to invest I feel this is one of the things AM, Ferrari and others are taking their time over. Porsche have worked things out but the others will not want to have vehicles that are copies of this. That's certainly where I am with EVs. - The Taycan might look fantastic on a spreadsheet but in the real world, vehicles like it have only served to make massive performance strangely mundane and uninteresting. I just don't want one...but there are thousands of ICE vehicles I'd love to experience for a similar budget.
On the power. It’s hard to describe, yes it is way more powerful than 99.9% of road cars but you don’t feel like you have the same license losing risk of other cars. I have yet to work out why. I don’t feel like I need to deploy the power all the time or it doesn’t necessarily egg you on. I’m not sure what it is.
I disagree with the spreadsheet, numbers on paper thing. The torque at any speed is a lot of fun and very addictive, it has not got tiring once. They also drive very well for a road car. You have a lot of fun just without the drama of what’s under the bonnet. Describing them as mundane has almost become a cliche. You know you are driving something with insane performance and that feels special.
Edited by delta0 on Saturday 13th April 14:19
GT9 said:
J4CKO said:
Was on about this one, fair to say Toyota are doing quite a bit of Hydrogen research.
https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-showcases-experi...
I think people take it as that’s the future, not that a massive company are hedging their bets and having a horse in every race ?
Note the blanked-out rear compartment.https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-showcases-experi...
I think people take it as that’s the future, not that a massive company are hedging their bets and having a horse in every race ?
If they want to bring a 2-seater 'weekend' hatchback to the market, good luck to them.
Will there be sufficient hydrogen access to refuel this car in the UK?
My feelings towards these type of cars are driven by expectation management.
And the same people say that EV's wont work as the infrastructure isnt there, and its not yet, but it seems an utterly bizarre thing to ay having just said "Hydrogen is the future".
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff