RE: Production Focus RS Breaks Cover
Discussion
Combover said:
STASH1 said:
If front wheel drive is so great how come you never see it used in super cars or formula one for that matter ?
Fitness for purpose.In the same way you'd be hard pushed to find RWD on a sub £10k hatch.
Are people losing their in-built logic and common sense when they enter this thread or something?
jag guru said:
I dont agree with this bit.If anything it,s the "bean counters and marketing men" who,ve won the day over the engineers,here.I,ve read the
justification for producing this car in FWD format.More about saving money,
than saving weight and on mechanical complexity,imo.
300 BHP,through only two driven wheels,means the tyres on those wheels
have to deliver 150BHP each to the road.Sun,wind, hail,rain,ice....snow.
I,ve got two words for you......TORQUE STEER!
No I,ve never driven a 300BHP fwd car,nor would I want to.
If the engineers had won the argument,this car would have four driven
wheels,for sure.
Which is a shame,because it looks sensational.
Not to clued up on what causes torque steer and how to resolve it then! $wd isnt always the answerjustification for producing this car in FWD format.More about saving money,
than saving weight and on mechanical complexity,imo.
300 BHP,through only two driven wheels,means the tyres on those wheels
have to deliver 150BHP each to the road.Sun,wind, hail,rain,ice....snow.
I,ve got two words for you......TORQUE STEER!
No I,ve never driven a 300BHP fwd car,nor would I want to.
If the engineers had won the argument,this car would have four driven
wheels,for sure.
Which is a shame,because it looks sensational.
Oh and to everyone who thinks it should be 4wd, you need to look at the 4wd system its would take, which is the Haldex system, similar to that used on the R32/S3. Its not really designed for performance cars, and is essentially a FWD hang on anyway, the R32/S3 dont gain a huge amount from it in real terms
I bet the competitors were benchmarked and it was decided that the required performance and handling could be met more efficiently with a well engineered FWD system than the AWD system available, so an engineering descision. There would be accountant costs too, quite simply the production line for the focus probably probably couldnt deal with a 4wd variant cost effectively at low volumes.
Its not all bad, the R26 F1 has basically the same set up and is current king of hot hatches, and with only 230 brake is around 2sec a lap faster than the best of the rest (EVO) so would be quicker than the R32, and not much slower than the S3 with 260bhp.
Knowing the people involved fairly confident this will be one of the fastest and most involving hot hatches around. Will it be better to drive than the best fwd, rwd and awd for the same money, possibly not but will be a practical and competent alternative, and just as fast.
Quit your moaning, be glad there building something for the enthusiast, rather than just another soft roader or mpv variant.
Why do these threads turn into petty squabbles?
FFS no body has driven the car, some have driven a preious FRS and some an ST. Both are good at what they do IMO. 300BHP in a front drive car may have been too much a few years ago but times change. I am certain that if they thought the car couldn't take the power they would have engineered a 4wd or RWD system.
I really get annoyed at pissing contests where people start arguments because of their belief their opinion is the correct one. If you don't like what ford have done tough. Stop bashing each other and wait to pass judgement on the car.
IIRC people said the ST could handle more power comfortably! Also when the St170 was launched people said it needed more, the RS had more and some people moaned it was FWD.
I like front drive cars and they can be driven very quickly, and most a lot more safely on the roads than a RWD by a normal man (there is an MR2 turbo owner who could varify that as he was picking bit of bodykit from a hedge row after trying to keep up with a slower FWD focus!). 4WD is heavy and would add to the development costs of a car with no 4WD variants in its range.
FFS no body has driven the car, some have driven a preious FRS and some an ST. Both are good at what they do IMO. 300BHP in a front drive car may have been too much a few years ago but times change. I am certain that if they thought the car couldn't take the power they would have engineered a 4wd or RWD system.
I really get annoyed at pissing contests where people start arguments because of their belief their opinion is the correct one. If you don't like what ford have done tough. Stop bashing each other and wait to pass judgement on the car.
IIRC people said the ST could handle more power comfortably! Also when the St170 was launched people said it needed more, the RS had more and some people moaned it was FWD.
I like front drive cars and they can be driven very quickly, and most a lot more safely on the roads than a RWD by a normal man (there is an MR2 turbo owner who could varify that as he was picking bit of bodykit from a hedge row after trying to keep up with a slower FWD focus!). 4WD is heavy and would add to the development costs of a car with no 4WD variants in its range.
Ford is promising a 0-60mph time of under six seconds.
I should f
king hope so with in excess of 276bhp! It would have to be the heaviest hot hatch ever built to not crack six seconds.
I know it's been said a million times but I still think it's a shame they didn't make a 4WD Focus RS like the Escort Cossie. I don't see why it would have weighed so much, the Subaru and Evo aren't that heavy. As much as I'm a fan of FWD when it's done well (I have a DC2 ITR) it's not going to be a true competitor to the Evo X and STi in the minds of many enthusiasts, at least it's got a stupidly heavy Volvo engine over the front axle so it has some traction in the wet, probably have a torque limiter in the first three gears like the BBR 280 ST and others have.
Styling will win fans from the Max Power brigade but probably a bit much for the average Focus owner who might have been tempted to go for the flagship model, probably a good thing though as there's already too many bright orange STs clogging up the slow lanes of our motorways trying desperately to eek out 30mpg.
Good luck to it, more cars like this please, pushing the boundaries of what performance you can get out of a shopping trolley (Do you remember the days when they said 200bhp was the limit for a FWD road car? About three years ago I think!).
I should f
king hope so with in excess of 276bhp! It would have to be the heaviest hot hatch ever built to not crack six seconds.I know it's been said a million times but I still think it's a shame they didn't make a 4WD Focus RS like the Escort Cossie. I don't see why it would have weighed so much, the Subaru and Evo aren't that heavy. As much as I'm a fan of FWD when it's done well (I have a DC2 ITR) it's not going to be a true competitor to the Evo X and STi in the minds of many enthusiasts, at least it's got a stupidly heavy Volvo engine over the front axle so it has some traction in the wet, probably have a torque limiter in the first three gears like the BBR 280 ST and others have.
Styling will win fans from the Max Power brigade but probably a bit much for the average Focus owner who might have been tempted to go for the flagship model, probably a good thing though as there's already too many bright orange STs clogging up the slow lanes of our motorways trying desperately to eek out 30mpg.
Good luck to it, more cars like this please, pushing the boundaries of what performance you can get out of a shopping trolley (Do you remember the days when they said 200bhp was the limit for a FWD road car? About three years ago I think!).
Edited by Steve Gunnis on Sunday 6th July 18:36
To put it simply, I don't consider the lack of 4WD to be a hinderance to the RS at all. Let's face it, as many people would be whingeing if the car WAS 4WD and 150kgs heavier because of it - they'd all be moaning about 'purity' and 'light weight'.
Fact of the matter is that the ST comfortably handles 270bhp as it is (mine's just under this at 266bhp) but there are loads on the focusstoc with 300bhp+. I have no doubt that with the trick diff and whatever this 'Revoknuckle' device does, the RS will be more than capable of putting its 300bhp down.
I'm pleased to see that a little more appears to have gone into the RS than a body-swap and a remap - I was genuinely concerned that Ford were going to bugger this up royally.
I predict that when it launches, we'll have glowing reviews from the press as Ford will have learned from the criticisms levelled at the old RS in terms of torque-steer and ride. One thing Ford seem to be consistently good at is chassis development and setup. It's still a little 'in-yer-face' for me, but I can see it looking great in a more subtle colour like black or grey. I think this is really going to give the Subaru and Mitsubishi something to think about - they're 300bhp each but have greater drivetrain losses than the RS will have.
Let's not forget, there's been glowing praise for the grip and traction displayed by the Mégane R26 F1 with its limited-slip diff. I can see the RS being pretty spot on. Only the looks would hold me back from getting one.
*PS. I got my ST in grey as the Electric Orange was too lairy for me...
Fact of the matter is that the ST comfortably handles 270bhp as it is (mine's just under this at 266bhp) but there are loads on the focusstoc with 300bhp+. I have no doubt that with the trick diff and whatever this 'Revoknuckle' device does, the RS will be more than capable of putting its 300bhp down.
I'm pleased to see that a little more appears to have gone into the RS than a body-swap and a remap - I was genuinely concerned that Ford were going to bugger this up royally.
I predict that when it launches, we'll have glowing reviews from the press as Ford will have learned from the criticisms levelled at the old RS in terms of torque-steer and ride. One thing Ford seem to be consistently good at is chassis development and setup. It's still a little 'in-yer-face' for me, but I can see it looking great in a more subtle colour like black or grey. I think this is really going to give the Subaru and Mitsubishi something to think about - they're 300bhp each but have greater drivetrain losses than the RS will have.
Let's not forget, there's been glowing praise for the grip and traction displayed by the Mégane R26 F1 with its limited-slip diff. I can see the RS being pretty spot on. Only the looks would hold me back from getting one.
*PS. I got my ST in grey as the Electric Orange was too lairy for me...
Fwd has moved on so much in recent years that I dont believe 300bhp is to much. Astra GTE's handled bad at 150hp and Volvos 850 T5 etc were not exactly great in the wet but with recent moves in tyre design and suspension a lot more power can be put into the front wheels without being a handfull.
4WD would have just raised the floor level and a transmission tunnel would cut down on interior space , meaning an already high car would look more like the current crop of softroaders.
Front wheel drive isnt the best option for a performance car but then we are talking about a high performance version of a family run about - not a sports car.
4WD would have just raised the floor level and a transmission tunnel would cut down on interior space , meaning an already high car would look more like the current crop of softroaders.
Front wheel drive isnt the best option for a performance car but then we are talking about a high performance version of a family run about - not a sports car.
read a magazine article recently where the head of renaultsport said that with new tyre and suspension technology 350bhp could be put through the front wheels. it aint just ford who are going to be producing these 300 plus cars.i own a remapped st and with an lsd think it would handle this power
Fastra said:
couple of other colours: (images)
How about Performance Blue?That colour always catches my eye. I think I'm right in saying that it was the only one available on the Mk1 RS.
It looks like this one will be available in a range of colours, but I hope that none of them will be available on non-RS Foci.
Talksteer said:
Re: Engineers.
I can only assume these comments from people about what Ford Engineers would and would not like to do and accountants stopping them have never actually worked in an engineering company.
Firstly accountants would not have anything to do with a product design decision. Accountants will be involved in big investment decisions where the company is concerned about affordability of programs in terms of available numbers of people and plant which is fair as there is no point starting a program if you are going to run out of money half way through. The project has gone a head so the accounting department were indeed in favour of it.
I'm a design engineer, I have never met an accountant professionally in my company.
Product cost decisions will be made by the project, the project don't need an accountant to tell them that the total cost of delivering a vehicle should be less than the amount you plan to sell it at.
What the people on this thread are being is the marketing department. The marketing department will have gone away and established that the Ford badge and heritage could carry a sports car with a price of £25k. They will have wanted it to be 4WD and feature ceramic brakes and a carbon fibre roof.
It is the engineering department that will have gone away and said, fine it can be 4WD but it will weigh 100kg more, arrive a year later (and consquently have a year less time to pay for the additional design work) and require twice as many man hours. Can we increase the price to get the profit margin back? Answer from marketing, No people won't pay any more for it.
Decision made.
As an aside it was an engineer who had sufficient authority to ride roughshod over any advice from marketing that brought FWD cars on to the market in the first place. BMWs are rear wheel drive because the marketing department say they should be not because the engineers want them to be apart from the larger engined variants most of their models don't really gain anything from being RWD.
Make this man a saint. And give him a knighthood.I can only assume these comments from people about what Ford Engineers would and would not like to do and accountants stopping them have never actually worked in an engineering company.
Firstly accountants would not have anything to do with a product design decision. Accountants will be involved in big investment decisions where the company is concerned about affordability of programs in terms of available numbers of people and plant which is fair as there is no point starting a program if you are going to run out of money half way through. The project has gone a head so the accounting department were indeed in favour of it.
I'm a design engineer, I have never met an accountant professionally in my company.
Product cost decisions will be made by the project, the project don't need an accountant to tell them that the total cost of delivering a vehicle should be less than the amount you plan to sell it at.
What the people on this thread are being is the marketing department. The marketing department will have gone away and established that the Ford badge and heritage could carry a sports car with a price of £25k. They will have wanted it to be 4WD and feature ceramic brakes and a carbon fibre roof.
It is the engineering department that will have gone away and said, fine it can be 4WD but it will weigh 100kg more, arrive a year later (and consquently have a year less time to pay for the additional design work) and require twice as many man hours. Can we increase the price to get the profit margin back? Answer from marketing, No people won't pay any more for it.
Decision made.
As an aside it was an engineer who had sufficient authority to ride roughshod over any advice from marketing that brought FWD cars on to the market in the first place. BMWs are rear wheel drive because the marketing department say they should be not because the engineers want them to be apart from the larger engined variants most of their models don't really gain anything from being RWD.
Am loving this disscusion on the 'rs'...first well done ford!! the response thru various sites makes me think there is a lot of interest in this car,as far as colour and looks go it is purely a personal thing...i love the lime green (and the bright orange on the st)but each to there own,as far as performance is concerned it will be up there with the best... (i agree with chriss w66), lets face it if you woke up one morn with the keys to a brand new rs and a nice empty b road..it would bring a smile to your face(if you like driving that is)...all the hot hatches have ther good and bad points the renault 225 is quick but as surveys report will probably be unreliable over time,the scooby heavy thirst,constant maintence etc,dont knock a car till you have owned and driven it.
see and hear bout the rs....
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.a... V
this might tell you lot what you want to know!!!
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.a... V
this might tell you lot what you want to know!!!
jag guru said:
However,Ford had already designed,costed,
engineered,and built an awd chassis for the Focus.....the WRC chassis.
So,no need to spend a year re-designing the fwd one,then If the will had
been there,this chassis could have been adapted for production ?
So,fwd for other reasons ?
Right...so your telling me that Focus WRC car is closely related to the road car, you been to M-sport recently?engineered,and built an awd chassis for the Focus.....the WRC chassis.
So,no need to spend a year re-designing the fwd one,then If the will had
been there,this chassis could have been adapted for production ?
So,fwd for other reasons ?
The difference between the two cars is erm...lets see about £300k!
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