Discussion
nickfrog said:
Debaser said:
Every single FWD car in the world tends towards understeer when accelerating out of a corner.
No. Drive a DC2 or a DC5. Or a Meg RS. When well driven, they simply tend to tuck in thanks to the slipper. They are set up to do just that. You may well need to trail break them but that's no hardship.Debaser said:
nickfrog said:
Debaser said:
Every single FWD car in the world tends towards understeer when accelerating out of a corner.
No. Drive a DC2 or a DC5. Or a Meg RS. When well driven, they simply tend to tuck in thanks to the slipper. They are set up to do just that. You may well need to trail break them but that's no hardship.nickfrog said:
Nothing untoward if you have managed the weight transfer to your advantage and modulate the throttle in exact proportion to the amount of lock that you unwind. Easy. A bit like driving a car on the edge of the traction circle, if you like ;-)
Was just thinking that. You can either go mad and spin and slide and stuff, or drive the damn thing and go round just as quickly as anything else.Its all about the feel of the front wheels and what happens next? Its all about the chassis of any given vehicle and its driven wheels.
What happens when the front wheels slip, determines what you react to (or try to react to) as a driver.
The front wheels usually dictate the progression and speed and transmit road conditions and grip levels to the driver.
How the driver reacts to this information is obviously very important.
Everyone reacts differently to front wheel slip messages, some panic, some back off, some power on ,some blend. And that's just the throttle!
Add steering angle into that and there is a multitude of options available..and a multitude of outcomes!
Discussing that on a forum in detail is almost impossible, as one drivers blow on the throttle is another drivers sneeze.
Drive cars, whatever the driven wheels, have fun, collect the slide, dont crash or hurt anyone--Job done!
What happens when the front wheels slip, determines what you react to (or try to react to) as a driver.
The front wheels usually dictate the progression and speed and transmit road conditions and grip levels to the driver.
How the driver reacts to this information is obviously very important.
Everyone reacts differently to front wheel slip messages, some panic, some back off, some power on ,some blend. And that's just the throttle!
Add steering angle into that and there is a multitude of options available..and a multitude of outcomes!
Discussing that on a forum in detail is almost impossible, as one drivers blow on the throttle is another drivers sneeze.
Drive cars, whatever the driven wheels, have fun, collect the slide, dont crash or hurt anyone--Job done!
nickfrog said:
Debaser said:
nickfrog said:
Debaser said:
Every single FWD car in the world tends towards understeer when accelerating out of a corner.
No. Drive a DC2 or a DC5. Or a Meg RS. When well driven, they simply tend to tuck in thanks to the slipper. They are set up to do just that. You may well need to trail break them but that's no hardship.Back to the slip angles. In all FWD cars slip at the front increases more than at the rear, the result being the vehicle tending towards understeer. Being FWD it's impossible for them to do anything else. Saying 'no' doesn't change the laws of physics.
Debaser said:
Every single FWD car in the world tends towards understeer when accelerating out of a corner.
And so do the vast majority of rwd cars, except maybe only a few high end cars. The understeer is built in to protect the public from themselves. If you doubt this just go and watch vintage cars in action - they do as you say, road cars really don't, not in any meaningful way.Debaser said:
I don't disagree with that.
Back to the slip angles. In all FWD cars slip at the front increases more than at the rear, the result being the vehicle tending towards understeer. Being FWD it's impossible for them to do anything else. Saying 'no' doesn't change the laws of physics.
What do you mean by accelerating out of the corner? The grip levels of cars since the 1980s (if I think of my old R5) are so high that you have to have some considerable power to be able to alter the car's angle under power out of a corner. Certainly my 260 bhp Boxster can't do it, and while that's not a lot of power nowadays it probably doesn't have as much grip as the more powerful cars either. On the EVO triangle a year or so ago, where I'm doing 130+ on public roads on the quicker sections, there's not enough power to make any meaningful difference whatsoever.Back to the slip angles. In all FWD cars slip at the front increases more than at the rear, the result being the vehicle tending towards understeer. Being FWD it's impossible for them to do anything else. Saying 'no' doesn't change the laws of physics.
I say forget slip angles, you're obsessing over something that's not relevant in overall terms - it's like obsessing over ackermann principle or somesuch.
Hot hatches aren't understeering their way about, that is a fact. That Golf in that EVO film isn't understeering its way anywhere, no more than the other are.
The only thing I'd like to know is are today's powerful front hatches as wieldy, as adjustable on the throttle, as they used to be or are they over-tyred?
SidewaysSi said:
He has a point - handling and Audi are never in the same sentence for positive reasons. Stating how wonderous FWD is is somewhat undermined...
No he doesn't. Where did the Audi ever come into it? It was simply an attempt at a dig/humor and a failure to respond back to me in any other way or even attempt to address my other comments. You understand that don't you?Who stated how wonderous FWD drive is? I certainly didn't
Edited by culpz on Friday 16th December 08:47
heebeegeetee said:
What do you mean by accelerating out of the corner? The grip levels of cars since the 1980s (if I think of my old R5) are so high that you have to have some considerable power to be able to alter the car's angle under power out of a corner. Certainly my 260 bhp Boxster can't do it, and while that's not a lot of power nowadays it probably doesn't have as much grip as the more powerful cars either. On the EVO triangle a year or so ago, where I'm doing 130+ on public roads on the quicker sections, there's not enough power to make any meaningful difference whatsoever.
I say forget slip angles, you're obsessing over something that's not relevant in overall terms - it's like obsessing over ackermann principle or somesuch.
Hot hatches aren't understeering their way about, that is a fact. That Golf in that EVO film isn't understeering its way anywhere, no more than the other are.
The only thing I'd like to know is are today's powerful front hatches as wieldy, as adjustable on the throttle, as they used to be or are they over-tyred?
Your boxster would show pleasant rwd traits even with 100 bhp.I say forget slip angles, you're obsessing over something that's not relevant in overall terms - it's like obsessing over ackermann principle or somesuch.
Hot hatches aren't understeering their way about, that is a fact. That Golf in that EVO film isn't understeering its way anywhere, no more than the other are.
The only thing I'd like to know is are today's powerful front hatches as wieldy, as adjustable on the throttle, as they used to be or are they over-tyred?
Debaser is talking about whether cars tend to understeer more or less under power, not about the absolute level of understeer. This tendency doesn't apply only at the limit. It is also apparent during normal driving.
Cars grip a lot harder than they used to. That means to get the same involvement you have to corner harder. Other than that they have also become more precise and forgiving at the limit. A lot of the adjustability of the older hot hatches (205 Gti) was due to the cheap and flexy rear axle. These classic hot hatches weren't tuned to be adjustable, it was an outcome.
Debaser said:
I don't disagree with that.
Back to the slip angles. In all FWD cars slip at the front increases more than at the rear, the result being the vehicle tending towards understeer. Being FWD it's impossible for them to do anything else. Saying 'no' doesn't change the laws of physics.
Then why do they snap-oversteer, and the lift-off oversteer? The car's are imbalanced, they have far more grip on the front than the rear, which is why it's vital to fit new tyres on the rear, and boy, didn't I find that out back in the day.Back to the slip angles. In all FWD cars slip at the front increases more than at the rear, the result being the vehicle tending towards understeer. Being FWD it's impossible for them to do anything else. Saying 'no' doesn't change the laws of physics.
I remember spinning out in the snow back in my road rallying days in my old MG Meastro too.
In my experience a bit more understeer might have been nice, the instant oversteer can be a bit of a pain.
Youtube has plenty of vids of hatchbacks snapping out of control through an excess of sudden oversteer.
heebeegeetee said:
Then why do they snap-oversteer, and the lift-off oversteer?
Usually because the driver responds to the appearance of understeer by adding more lock instead of reducing throttle. That makes it worse, so they add more lock, which makes it worse still, then they lift or brake, weight transfer happens, front grips, rear goes light, they can't get the lock off in time and a hedge has a new hole.otolith said:
Usually because the driver responds to the appearance of understeer by adding more lock instead of reducing throttle. That makes it worse, so they add more lock, which makes it worse still, then they lift or brake, weight transfer happens, front grips, rear goes light, they can't get the lock off in time and a hedge has a new hole.
That is total hogwash. Are you serious? In all the conversations of escapades and crashes and stuff I've had over the years, I've never heard anyone describe that one!My experience in my old Mk2 Golf Gti many year ago was me hooning around my favourite roundabout trying to generate as much g as I could and the back just came straight round, no warning. Had similar in he R5 when I being optimistic in the rain. Similar in the snow on a road rally in my old MG Maestro. Similar on a million films on youtube.
If you're joking please do send me a parrot.
otolith said:
heebeegeetee said:
Then why do they snap-oversteer, and the lift-off oversteer?
Usually because the driver responds to the appearance of understeer by adding more lock instead of reducing throttle. That makes it worse, so they add more lock, which makes it worse still, then they lift or brake, weight transfer happens, front grips, rear goes light, they can't get the lock off in time and a hedge has a new hole.heebeegeetee said:
otolith said:
Usually because the driver responds to the appearance of understeer by adding more lock instead of reducing throttle. That makes it worse, so they add more lock, which makes it worse still, then they lift or brake, weight transfer happens, front grips, rear goes light, they can't get the lock off in time and a hedge has a new hole.
That is total hogwash. Are you serious? In all the conversations of escapades and crashes and stuff I've had over the years, I've never heard anyone describe that one!My experience in my old Mk2 Golf Gti many year ago was me hooning around my favourite roundabout trying to generate as much g as I could and the back just came straight round, no warning. Had similar in he R5 when I being optimistic in the rain. Similar in the snow on a road rally in my old MG Maestro. Similar on a million films on youtube.
If you're joking please do send me a parrot.
otolith said:
It's a very common mistake. How else do you think people spin front drive cars? If it oversteers when you aren't doing something stupid like that, it's broken.
Well, none of mine have spun becuase I was going straight on with loads of lock. Half the chance would have been nice. Your 'broken' only needs poor tyres on the back, that's all it takes. Rwds similar but less so.
otolith said:
Yes, "Broken" would include amongst other things, running tyres with very different grip front to rear, having completely buggered up suspension geometry and putting McDonalds trays under the rear wheels.
The one and only time I (all but) spun a FWD car. Company pool car, fitted with reasonable tyres up front and miss-matched ditchfinders on the back. I "saved" it but was pretty much 90 degrees to the direction of travel and it was one hell of a shock for it to happen.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff