RE: Lotus Emeya finishes testing, looks great doing it
Discussion
RacerMike said:
otolith said:
RacerMike said:
Difference though is that Porsche ground up engineer a Porsche from VW platform components, whereas Lotus in it's current iteration just about get to sprinkle a few hundreds and thousands on a Geely.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
That seems to me like a preconception - what are you basing it on?Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
RacerMike said:
otolith said:
RacerMike said:
Difference though is that Porsche ground up engineer a Porsche from VW platform components, whereas Lotus in it's current iteration just about get to sprinkle a few hundreds and thousands on a Geely.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
That seems to me like a preconception - what are you basing it on?Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
Nomme de Plum said:
RacerMike said:
otolith said:
RacerMike said:
Difference though is that Porsche ground up engineer a Porsche from VW platform components, whereas Lotus in it's current iteration just about get to sprinkle a few hundreds and thousands on a Geely.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
That seems to me like a preconception - what are you basing it on?Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
Reality is, I'm not sure if there are really any actual Lotus customers around: the existing Elise and Evora buyers clearly weren't going to keep the company afloat. In which case, whether it has any input from the existing people in Norfolk or not is moot. Will anyone who cross shops the alternatives even care, let alone know, whether the Lotus steers any better than a Zeekr or BYD? Or Tesla for that matter? I suppose the fact of the matter is, very few actual buyers care about anything other than a badge, interior and infotainment screen. Dynamics, ride, NVH and comfort seem to be being eroded by the legacy OEMs so why would Geely make an effort.
otolith said:
RacerMike said:
otolith said:
RacerMike said:
Difference though is that Porsche ground up engineer a Porsche from VW platform components, whereas Lotus in it's current iteration just about get to sprinkle a few hundreds and thousands on a Geely.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
That seems to me like a preconception - what are you basing it on?Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
CAR Magazine said:
We’ve driven the Seal on road and track in the UK and the news is good on the dynamic front. We tested both forms of the Seal on a Spanish test circuit – a slalom course as well as a drag strip to show off the acceleration of the Excellence AWD – and on a mixture of urban, shoddy UK rural and motorways in Germany.
On the circuit, the Seal impresses with plenty of punch, direct steering with a quick rack, and a general sense of agility. It’s not physics-busting in the way a BMW i4 is, but tidy handling, good response, and excellent body control in general.
Brakes, too, are consistent and offer excellent stopping power, even if a couple of examples we tried had softer brake response than we would have expected.
...
Get it away from the drag strip, and the Seal is even more impressive. Steering is quick and well-weighted, although in Sport mode, it’s probably a little too direct for most tastes. Dial it back to Normal mode and it’s still on the sharper side of normal with quite aggressive response around the straight ahead. Good thing, too, as in corners it feels neutral, turning-in responsively and with low levels of body roll to contend with.
On the circuit, the Seal impresses with plenty of punch, direct steering with a quick rack, and a general sense of agility. It’s not physics-busting in the way a BMW i4 is, but tidy handling, good response, and excellent body control in general.
Brakes, too, are consistent and offer excellent stopping power, even if a couple of examples we tried had softer brake response than we would have expected.
...
Get it away from the drag strip, and the Seal is even more impressive. Steering is quick and well-weighted, although in Sport mode, it’s probably a little too direct for most tastes. Dial it back to Normal mode and it’s still on the sharper side of normal with quite aggressive response around the straight ahead. Good thing, too, as in corners it feels neutral, turning-in responsively and with low levels of body roll to contend with.
Do you think electric customers care about the badge? To my mind the evidence suggests buyers of electric cars have little if any interest in the badge. For instance, none of the makes listed below have decades of racing success, sports car pedigree or even premium image,
Tesla
Polestar
BYD
Fisker
Kia
Hyundai
By and large I think the electric market is led by product rather than brand image. Mr & Mrs Average know where they live, how they use their cars and how much money they feel like spending.
If Lotus gets the product right it will sell and the 70-year heritage side of things will be something they can "big up" once real customers are turning up with real money to buy real cars. I doubt many people will be ordering an Emeya on the strength of 1960s TV shows, a couple of James Bond films and Ayrton Senna having won some F1 races forty years ago.
Tesla
Polestar
BYD
Fisker
Kia
Hyundai
By and large I think the electric market is led by product rather than brand image. Mr & Mrs Average know where they live, how they use their cars and how much money they feel like spending.
If Lotus gets the product right it will sell and the 70-year heritage side of things will be something they can "big up" once real customers are turning up with real money to buy real cars. I doubt many people will be ordering an Emeya on the strength of 1960s TV shows, a couple of James Bond films and Ayrton Senna having won some F1 races forty years ago.
RacerMike said:
blueg33 said:
ImFeelingSaucy said:
blueg33 said:
My bold - Gavan Kershaw says he has been working on the handling development for several years, is he a liar?
No Gavin has been developing it - all be it within fairly limited parameters.I spent some time at Hethel shortly after the Geeley buy out. Make no mistake, they do as they are told.
New models were literally referred to as ‘gifts’ from Geeley.
Geeley had total control of product planning. They told them what they were building, what it should look like, where it was being built and how much they should charge for it.
Lotus was in no position to argue.
I saw and heard it for myself.
Gavins job was to try and make it feel like a Lotus - something he is very good at.
Does that make the final car a Lotus?
Up to you to decide.
All cars are a bunch of components made in different places by different companies and assembled and refined by the car company to match its requirements and ethos.
If being a Lotus is about exceptional handling and balance and they have taken that collection of components and achieved the aim, then IMO it’s a Lotus. Similarly a Taycan, Cayenne, Macan etc is a Porsche despite the majority of the components being VW.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
RacerMike said:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the approach isn't going to work, and I'm not in any way saying the new Lotus' aren't good cars! Far from it. I just think it's a shame that 99% of the development has been taken away from 'actual' Lotus. But that's me just being sad that business has won over substance I guess?
Reality is, I'm not sure if there are really any actual Lotus customers around: the existing Elise and Evora buyers clearly weren't going to keep the company afloat. In which case, whether it has any input from the existing people in Norfolk or not is moot. Will anyone who cross shops the alternatives even care, let alone know, whether the Lotus steers any better than a Zeekr or BYD? Or Tesla for that matter? I suppose the fact of the matter is, very few actual buyers care about anything other than a badge, interior and infotainment screen. Dynamics, ride, NVH and comfort seem to be being eroded by the legacy OEMs so why would Geely make an effort.
Only time will tell if these Lotus badged EVs sell well enough to make a worthwhile return for the parent company. If yes then maybe some more specialist products maybe allowed to be developed and Norfolk Lotus be more involved. Reality is, I'm not sure if there are really any actual Lotus customers around: the existing Elise and Evora buyers clearly weren't going to keep the company afloat. In which case, whether it has any input from the existing people in Norfolk or not is moot. Will anyone who cross shops the alternatives even care, let alone know, whether the Lotus steers any better than a Zeekr or BYD? Or Tesla for that matter? I suppose the fact of the matter is, very few actual buyers care about anything other than a badge, interior and infotainment screen. Dynamics, ride, NVH and comfort seem to be being eroded by the legacy OEMs so why would Geely make an effort.
Panamax said:
Do you think electric customers care about the badge? To my mind the evidence suggests buyers of electric cars have little if any interest in the badge. For instance, none of the makes listed below have decades of racing success, sports car pedigree or even premium image,
Tesla
Polestar
BYD
Fisker
Kia
Hyundai
By and large I think the electric market is led by product rather than brand image. Mr & Mrs Average know where they live, how they use their cars and how much money they feel like spending.
If Lotus gets the product right it will sell and the 70-year heritage side of things will be something they can "big up" once real customers are turning up with real money to buy real cars. I doubt many people will be ordering an Emeya on the strength of 1960s TV shows, a couple of James Bond films and Ayrton Senna having won some F1 races forty years ago.
Early adopters of any product or service tend to be brand agnostic. All of the manufacturers you listed (possibly with the exception of Hyundai and Kia) are challenger brands. Their strategy in the early days is to target consumers who have little brand loyalty or preference, simply because they want to have the latest thing regardless of who or where it comes from. Obviously that early uptake filters through to a wider brand reputation. It also helps that people feel like they’re buying something different. Sure it’s a car at the end of the day, but what established car makers have done a really convincing job with their EV offering, other than the aforementioned Kia and Hyundai?Tesla
Polestar
BYD
Fisker
Kia
Hyundai
By and large I think the electric market is led by product rather than brand image. Mr & Mrs Average know where they live, how they use their cars and how much money they feel like spending.
If Lotus gets the product right it will sell and the 70-year heritage side of things will be something they can "big up" once real customers are turning up with real money to buy real cars. I doubt many people will be ordering an Emeya on the strength of 1960s TV shows, a couple of James Bond films and Ayrton Senna having won some F1 races forty years ago.
Nomme de Plum said:
911Spanker said:
Does itake sense to keep Lotus Norfolk at all?
Depends whether it can wash its face financially. If yes then the Heritage value may make it a worthwhile to retain it. Gary Woodland said:
RacerMike said:
blueg33 said:
ImFeelingSaucy said:
blueg33 said:
My bold - Gavan Kershaw says he has been working on the handling development for several years, is he a liar?
No Gavin has been developing it - all be it within fairly limited parameters.I spent some time at Hethel shortly after the Geeley buy out. Make no mistake, they do as they are told.
New models were literally referred to as ‘gifts’ from Geeley.
Geeley had total control of product planning. They told them what they were building, what it should look like, where it was being built and how much they should charge for it.
Lotus was in no position to argue.
I saw and heard it for myself.
Gavins job was to try and make it feel like a Lotus - something he is very good at.
Does that make the final car a Lotus?
Up to you to decide.
All cars are a bunch of components made in different places by different companies and assembled and refined by the car company to match its requirements and ethos.
If being a Lotus is about exceptional handling and balance and they have taken that collection of components and achieved the aim, then IMO it’s a Lotus. Similarly a Taycan, Cayenne, Macan etc is a Porsche despite the majority of the components being VW.
Clearly Lotus wasn't working and wouldn't have worked as it would. It's going to be a test of the customer base (if it even exists anymore) as to whether they actually buy the latest Geely vehicles because they have a Lotus badge on when they have such little Lotus DNA in. Why, for example, would you pay the premium for a Lotus Geely over something like a BYD or a Zeekr when they're basically the same...
otolith said:
You said 'I'll wait for a BYD or a Zeekr to get as good reviews for its dynamics' though, and that's what I was responding to. You didn't specify it had to be a direct Emeya competitor!Silvanus said:
Nomme de Plum said:
911Spanker said:
Does itake sense to keep Lotus Norfolk at all?
Depends whether it can wash its face financially. If yes then the Heritage value may make it a worthwhile to retain it. They made a loss £145M in 2022 so something needed to be done to keep the company viable. Unfortunately a few posters seem to think a specialist car company like Lotus can run on fairy dust and an enthusiastic following.
RacerMike said:
otolith said:
You said 'I'll wait for a BYD or a Zeekr to get as good reviews for its dynamics' though, and that's what I was responding to. You didn't specify it had to be a direct Emeya competitor!Nomme de Plum said:
Silvanus said:
Nomme de Plum said:
911Spanker said:
Does itake sense to keep Lotus Norfolk at all?
Depends whether it can wash its face financially. If yes then the Heritage value may make it a worthwhile to retain it. They made a loss £145M in 2022 so something needed to be done to keep the company viable. Unfortunately a few posters seem to think a specialist car company like Lotus can run on fairy dust and an enthusiastic following.
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