Saab gone?

[The Hypno-Toad]

Ahh... ohhh....

GM has said no, again.

GM will not approve the plan by Muller and Youngman currently in the workings, says GM spokesperson James Cain this afternoon.

“I would like to clarify GM:s intentions regarding the different proposals that have been laid out by Saab the last few days. Including the wrongful statement that approval by GM will not be needed”.

He means the new proposal does not differ from the earlier proposals they have already turned down. All proposals will directly or indirectly change the complete ownership structure of Saab, something that GM can not approve of.

http://ttela.se/ekonomi/saab/1.1469197-gm-sager-ne...

Oh... and no wages still with 36 hours to go.

10.00 Monday folks, book a seat, its going to get nasty. (and I'm at work. )

[The Hypno-Toad]

K321 said:

YM and P are going to lend the money to SWAN and there are dozens of lawyers etc in Stockholm which will mean that GM cannot say No. this will be approved by European bank etc. GM wants saab to go down as less one competitor. All this technology talk is just in the open to hide their hidden agenda. the tech expires in 4 years time, in which time Ym and P will take full control of Saab
incidentally it was the Swedish management that did not know how to work with the Americans which resulted in GM not working well with Saab , combined with the lack of Americans understanding how to market a premium brand

Right. Can I just draw your attention to this?

Pistachio said:

www.di.se

New money for Saab
2011-12-12 22:25

Saab Automobile will get about 300 million from China Youngman and the threat of bankruptcy can be eliminated. The Dagens Industry in Tuesday's Journal.
Chinese Youngman under current industry source paid the $ 5 million, about 34 million, to the Tax to cover the Saab Automobile taxes and fees.

[b]On Wednesday, a further EUR 20 million, more than 180 million, which pays the salaries of employees. Before the end of the year, Saab will also get 10 million.

"Information and documentation will be forwarded to Vänersborg before 13 o'clock on Thursday. Thus, reconstruction continue,"[/b]

The money from Youngman had already been paid on Friday, but will be stuck in the Chinese banking system and therefore been delayed.

That was this Monday. The money to pay the wages as still not arrived. The only money that has arrived was used to pay the tax bill for which Muller was personally liable.

Two simple question;
If Youngman can afford to buy the company for 100s of million euros why can't they pay in 30 million euros to pay the wages when they have a week to do it in and therefore stop all doubt about the Re-Organisation? If they can afford to do it why are we all hanging on waiting for Mondays hearing?

Oh and PangDa are no longer involved with any financial negotiations regarding a purchase of Saab/SWAN. If the deal goes through they will still be seeling the cars though.

You are related to sladealive/saabguru AICMFP.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Sunday 18th December 07:07

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

Toad: why would YM pay the taxes in order to save VM's hide? What is in it for them?

I honestly don't know.

But most Swedish news outlets were reporting (or had been briefed) that Muller was going to file the company for bankruptcy on Monday because of the unpaid tax bill that was due on that day. On Monday as well the last remaining member of the board resigned, which left Muller as the only board member who would be personally liable for the tax debt. Compared with the amount that Youngman have already pumped in it would have been small beer to save Mullers hide, especially if he had promised them something in exchange for this favour.

My reading of the paper trail is that the money from Youngman was paid in to Swedish Automobile Cooperatif U.A. (at least according to the document published on SaabsUnited.) and then transfered into SWANs accounts. Swedish Automobile Cooperatif U.A. was the company that Muller set up on 12/09 to organise the sale of the rights of PhoeniX platform to Youngman. Perhaps as the original payment for this never arrived, perhaps this payment was taken as a deposit to insure that if does all go wrong tomorrow Youngman have have first dibs? (or at least think they do.)

In di.se today GM have confirmed again that if the current deal is put before the Court they will use any means to block it and failing that will withdraw all their IP, which will basically leave Saab with no way to build any cars. Muller has confirmed to the newspaper that he has had no contact with Youngman since GM made this announcement.

Still no wages, 22 & 1/2 hours to go....

[The Hypno-Toad]

aeropilot said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

In di.se today GM have confirmed again that if the current deal is put before the Court they will use any means to block it and failing that will withdraw all their IP, which will basically leave Saab with no way to build any cars. Muller has confirmed to the newspaper that he has had no contact with Youngman since GM made this announcement.

Hmmmmmmnn...... looks like the checkmate move from GM now me thinks......??

Announced tonight that Rachel Pang of Youngman, who was due to be at the hearing tomorrow, has now been taken seriously ill and will not be attending.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Swedish TV is reporting tonight that Youngman are out. To be confirmed.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Was is true is that Saabs CFO resigned on Friday night, again to avoid any personal liability if the company goes into bankruptcy today.

Still no money, rumours that Muller is going to place the company into bankruptcy before the court convenes, I'm late for work, bye!

[The Hypno-Toad]

Well.

I can't type much tonight, I have dinner plans (The Toad actually has friends shocker!) and TBH I don't really want to. I'll be back on Wednesday to put my thoughts down on the last nine months.
That's if anyone still gives a crap..

As most of you will know, one of my major interests outside of cars is music and tonight somehow, this seems apt.

There is simply no distance left to run....

Until Wednesday then..... Toad Out.

[The Hypno-Toad]

The Oxford Paperback Dictionary said:

aghast adj filled with horror or shock.

Indulge me a little, I'll be back to that.

Well I guess I better finish what in a way I started.

I hope that no one here thinks that today I'm happy about this. Thats the very last thing on my mind. As I sit here typing this, my friends are sitting in a showroom as the estate agents are wandering around measuring and typing their reports on their Ipads. What the future holds for them is an unknown. This is a terrible tragedy especially this close to Christmas and its not just a Swedish or UK thing, its worldwide. This isn't an MG Rover, this is a major issue to do with vehicle over-production on a global scale.

I'm not going to go through the final endgame, its all up there. I think as soon GM finally confirmed on Saturday that they had the power not to approve any deal if it included Youngman in any shape or form, we all knew that Muller had called double or quits one last time. And that was before we were informed of Rachel Pangs "critical illness" that was going to stop her flying over for Mullers day in front of the court. Most of us knew that it was going to end but I for one felt that it was going to go to appeal after the Re-Organisation hearing which would have probably meant that it would have dragged on to February.
What I think is important is how this has all reflected on the principal players.

The People of Trollhatten: Its going to be very tough but without wanting to sound incredibly patronising they will get through it. If the rumours are true and Subaru are lining up to buy the empty factory then jobs in the automotive sector could return very promptly.

Hemfosa Fastigheter: Know anyone who wants to buy a car factory?

The Swedish Government: Was this what they always wanted? Very difficult to tell. Obviously in the current climate, they were never going to be able to bail out the company with actual cash but their lack of any kind of support, for instance possibly having a chat with the Chinese government, in the protacted negoitations was disgusting. But wait thats not true, they did help in October when they tried to help Lofalk sell the whole lot to Geely. In fact if Mr Borg had turned up at the meeting arranged by Loflak, there is a good chance that deal might have gone through and Muller would have been out. Its almost like they didn't want Saab to succeed with Muller at the helm. Why was that?

Guy Lofalk: One very relieved man. Thanks to GM taking the fall as the bad guy he can now count his money and slink back into anonymity. I think if Muller had been able to do his Perry Mason in court bit, Lofalk would have been painted as the man who killed Saab and judging by the hated generated on the Saab fan sites before the hearing had even convened that could have been a very nasty role to fulfill.

Valdimir Antonov: I think he has far more important things to worry about right now than the fate of Saab. Possibly staying out of a pair of concrete shoes is probably one of them.

Spyker: Who knows? And does anyone now actually care?

GM: Happy days for them. The thorn in their side which has been Saab has now gone and they have been spared the expense of the full endgame of closing the company & taking all the blame for them. Yelling at them on their facebook page is like an ant trying to bite an elephant. They don't care if a bunch of Saab fans say they will never buy a GM product again, they've protected their own interests and thats what is important. What a lot of the Saab fans forgot is that's its not a game and the car trade is not a charity. Its not personal, its just business. Don't discuss, don't review, onto the next one, hope it all comes good in the end. (or at least until you can find a better executive job.). They are the bad guys and they aren't, they just doing what was best for GM.

Youngman: Maybe the winners, maybe the bad guys. Rachel Pang, having recovered in remarkably quick time from her critical illness is now being quoted as saying that she is looking forward to purchasing the remains of Saab from the recievers. I bet she is. What needs to be seen is the rest of that document that appeared 10 days ago which appeared to suggest that finally some money had been paid into Swedish Automobile Cooperatief U.A. for the rights to the PhoeniX platform. This was the funding that was used by Muller to pay off the tax bill that he was personally liable for. It really would be a bit of deal for Youngman if they had got hold of an entire new vehicle modular platform for 2.2 million euros. (especially when they were orignally offered it for 70 million.). If they are the biggest creditor (and will find that out later.) I'm guessing that they will take the production line and the rights to current 9-3 thank you very much. The production line will fit very nicely into the empty factory they already have in country and the 9-3 will probably become the Youngman Something or Other. Who knows maybe the Youngman Gryphon?
The big question now is that were they deliberatly screwing with Muller, especially in the last couple of months? Who knows? But maybe the nearly deal with Geely had made scars that even the soothing words of Victor couldn't heal. I'm sure the "I told the Chinese the 100% deal would never fly," and "Why do the Chinese keep pumping money into the black hole that is Saab," comments made just as Muller was enjoying that pre-flight G&T probably didn't go down to well either.

I feel like I'm forgetting someone????

Oh yes.

Victor Muller. Angel? Fool? or Demon?
All three I think.
Angel?: Whatever else he is, no one works a room of angry creditors like him. How he managed to persude people to let Saab carry on through the last nine months is beyond me. Ok they wanted to be persuded but he could quite literally sell ice to eskimos. It never ceased to amaze me how he managed to time and time again pull rabbits out of a hat. A salesman extraordinare. Bravo.

Fool?: Not such a good businessman though. Either he should never been allowed to buy Saab in the first place as he had nowhere near the funding or he did an appalling job checking the small print. Once the snowball started to role, getting involved with 'companies' like NSC & EAG did his credability within the industry no good at all & most observers considered even talking about these people as the possible saviours of Saab, made him look foolish and desperate. The constant leaks of last minute 'deals' just before the wages were due were equally as bad. His claims now of five companies wanting to pick over the bones only raises the question, why weren't you talking to them instead of the Chinese?

Demon?: Case unproven. We're going to have to wait on that one.

So what happens now? (all MHO)
1.) Youngman will probably end up in court with GM over the rights to the PhoeniX platform. They will possibly take the current 9-3 and its production line instead. Maybe that's what they wanted all the time?
2.) Antonov will have difficulty talking his way out of jail, if he even makes it there.
3.) GM will sail on like nothing has happened and maybe with the PhoeniX platform for good measure.
4.) Spyker? Who knows? Maybe Muller? Maybe CPP? Maybe even Mr Six-Pack and NSC? And who knows maybe they will have the PhoeniX platform?
5.) The good people of Trollhatten? Hopefully Subaru will buy the factory and a skilled employment base of automotive workers won't be lost.

And finally;
6.) Muller. It all depends on what the bankruptcy accountants find doesn't it? If he isn't a demon in disguise, he will sail off into the sunset with his Curaco bank account, his yellow Rolls-Royce and possibly even Spyker. As I have always said Mr Muller was never going to come out of this a pauper. He will join the ranks of Simon Gillet and John Towers as businessmen who promised big and yet everyone except the true believers could see were never going to succeed in delivering anything in the long term (except perhaps funds to their own bank accounts?)
Unless of course, Antonov is as dodgy as everyone thinks he is and the accountants find some link to prove Muller knew that Vladmirs funding was shall we say "iffy". Then Mr Muller might be on a plane to examine that Curaco bank account permanantly.

But we have forgotten one last player; SAAB AB
The aircraft company own the rights to the name & can withdraw the rights to the brand. After all of this sideshow over the last nine months, does anyone really think they are going to let any company soil that brand any further?
No chance. And without that brand, what is left of the company is only worth the tools, the spares and the unbuilt cars. Which as I mentioned is possibly all that the Chinese wanted in the first place.

Oh and aghast? That was the comment made by the representatives of HawTai Motor Company after they had toured the factory back in May when they were thinking of putting a deal together with Muller. That is not a word you normally hear in business negoiations and should have been a major warning sign that the jig was up.
Perhaps someone should have had the sense to pull the plug then and we would have spared the events of the last six months. Back then the financial situation was possibly a bit better and the staff around the world who had depended on Saab for a living might been able to start again. Now, the motor industry is looking forward into the abyss which will be 2012. Most people I talk to in the industry will believe it could possibly be the worst for a very long time and events over at Renault this week seem to confirm that.
And remember, its now happened. A major brand has gone & in the general scheme of things caused bearly a ripple. Now the big manufacturers will be thinking

"That wasn't so bad, who can we get rid of now?"

Who indeed?

As I have mentioned this will still have further developments as the bankruptcy runs on but Saab as we all knew it is dead. If the car survives they will no longer be called Saabs and that is the greatest pity of all.

Toad out.

Thanks gwadlpus, The Crack Fox, Kara K, aeropilot, groomi, Pistachio, confused buyer, AndrewW-G and Petemate for all your contributions and support (plus anyone else I forgot). And thanks too skwdenyer. We may not have always agreed but at least we disagreed in a civilised way.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 21st December 15:26

[The Hypno-Toad]

I wasn't going to mention that as it seemed too flippant.

But if anyone has sladealives address, my friend runs a catering business and I'm sure we can oblige....

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 21st December 15:34

[The Hypno-Toad]

KaraK said:

As I said earlier on there is nothing to stop Saab AB either licensing the Saab name to another company for car purposes or indeed using it themselves. I fully agree with your points Toad in that they won't be wanting to risk any bad press with regards to the name in the immediate future, IIRC there were already reports of the negative press associated with the car business giving them some grief in their own dealings. As such I very much doubt that anyone who picks over the carcass will be allowed to take the name with them unless they have a vast amount of either cash or business to offer Saab AB to make it worth their while.

That doesn't mean however that we'll never see a Saab badge on a car again, the auto industry has form for resurrecting old names even after long periods and for one that has historically enjoyed a reputation for engineering innovation it would always be a tempting proposition.

I would agree KaraK. I think it may come back at some stage and lets face it they haven't made a decision. But as I posted on a link back up there ^^^ they are already concerned rightly or wrongly that it is affecting the Grippen deal with Switzerland.
I think once all the bankruptcy proceedings have been gone through we will be lucky to see the Saab name on the front of a car for some considerable time.

Thanks for all the praise guys . Something that just started out as a single post has grown to become a major part of my life this year and has brought me into contact with some terrific people. I really wish though, meeting these people had been through something more positive and had not been the result of this tragedy for the motor industry, the people of Trollhatten & even some of my personal friends.

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

To keep the gushfest going, an extremely good post as ever. Its been a pleasure 'virtually' working with you, if you know what I mean.

But we will just have to see about Muller, Saint or sinner?

skwdenyer said:

For my part, this whole saga has redoubled my resolve to do something I've been only talking about for a few years - to produce a pseudo-replica of 92.001 (by which I mean something that captures the essence and style and engineering thinking, but resolves a few of the impractical aspects of the design). I only want one, for myself, but I really, really ought to do it, if only to become the only manufacturer of Saabs

I really hope you succeed. I wish I could fix cars rather than just post about them.

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

Are you sure about the redundancies? This was reported today, but at least one Saab engineer has popped up on SU to say that this is categorically not the case.

SaabsUnited is where I got it from! And it has now been confirmed by ttela.

In other news, Rachel Pang continues her amazing recovery as she has flown into Sweden today to meet with the recievers. She has confirmed that Youngman want to buy the remains of the company asap and that they do indeed believe that they own at least part of the PhoeniX platform.

This is going to get interesting.... again.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Look at me..Christmas Eve and I'm still going, I must be nuts...

Confirmed. Youngman are convinced they own the PhoeniX platform. In fact, the reason why Ms Pang is in Stockholm is not only to lay claim to both the platform and the pickings from Saab but to set up a company to manage the development of the platform into a Youngman product.

Looks like someone might have got what they really wanted for Christmas. The really interesting bit will be seeing how much Muller charged them for it?

Enough. Back after Chrimbo.

A Merry Christmas to everyone on this thread!

[The Hypno-Toad]

And we are again..

Rumours, rumours..

As mentioned on the front page Mahindra's name has been tossed about over the Christmas period & it is one of many rumours that have been cropping up in the Swedish media recently. Haven't posted any of them uptil now because its been the holidays but everyones back so here are the latest runners and riders.

1.) As I mentioned above Youngman seem to believe with some conviction that they own the PhoeniX platform. I would guess that how true that is depends on the how the note scrawled on the back of a fag packet contract that Muller drew up with them was worded. I reckon this one will be heading to the courts.
2.) Yet another Chinese company, Dongfeng want to buy in. As the orginial reason Saab went bust was that GM didn't want their IP to go to China I would imagine they have no chance.
3.) A Turkish company Brightwell Holdings are circling too. They are described in the Swedish media as 'speculators' and claim they have already spoken to GM.
4.) Mahindra's name has been mentioned but it seems very vague. In fact some media reports claim they have already been rejected. What is interesting is that the statements about their possible involvement have been issued by Lars Carlström. The same Lars Carlstrom who used to issue statements for ..... Vladamir Antonov.

There are a lot of stories going around at the moment but the full team who will be dealing with the bankruptcy have yet to be completly assembled so it is still very early days to find out who will get what. But until we find out the answer to these two questions everything else is just speculation;

a.) Who will GM let use their IP?
b.) Will SAAB AB take the name back?

But they need to hurry up. Every day more of Saabs skilled engineers are moving onto other jobs and the value of whats left goes down. My own thoughts would be wait and see but if you've got a 9-4X, I think you'll have a real collectors car because can't see that vehicle being anything other than dead & buried.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Me on the 21/12/11 said:

Youngman: Rachel Pang, having recovered in remarkably quick time from her critical illness is now being quoted as saying that she is looking forward to purchasing the remains of Saab from the recievers. I bet she is. What needs to be seen is the rest of that document that appeared 10 days ago which appeared to suggest that finally some money had been paid into Swedish Automobile Cooperatief U.A. for the rights to the PhoeniX platform. This was the funding that was used by Muller to pay off the tax bill that he was personally liable for. It really would be a bit of deal for Youngman if they had got hold of an entire new vehicle modular platform for 2.2 million euros. (especially when they were orignally offered it for 70 million.). If they are the biggest creditor (and will find that out later.) I'm guessing that they will take the production line and the rights to current 9-3 thank you very much. The production line will fit very nicely into the empty factory they already have in country and the 9-3 will probably become the Youngman Something or Other.
The big question now is that were they deliberatly screwing with Muller, especially in the last couple of months? Who knows?


So what happens now? (all MHO)
1.) Youngman will probably end up in court with GM over the rights to the PhoeniX platform. They will possibly take the current 9-3 and its production line instead. Maybe that's what they wanted all the time?

Today?

Rachal Pang in di.se said:

"I had a good meeting with the receivers. We made a proposal," she said.

"We will have another meeting, but I can not say exactly when."

Probably next week.

The week runs the state security is out as the only valid for one month after the bankruptcy, that is, until 19 January. Youngman is keen that the Saab staff and key skills do not disappear.

"Our proposal means that we should have left the production in Trollhättan. Then we also have manufacturing facilities in China," said Rachel Pang. She points out that Youngman believe in the Saab brand.
"Our business is about building Saab models. We want to keep the brand Saab."

Above all, Youngmans main aim is the new platform Phoenix, but it is considered to be one-two years left of development. Should there be anything to manufacture until it is ready to present 9-3 could be an opening. It is not as tightly controlled by General Motors. Saab's former owner has otherwise blocked all possibilities for Youngman to take over the technology.
"For the current 9-3 it's more about purchasing agreements than pure rights,"

It is expected that it will much more difficult to get GM to release the rights to the new 9-5 and 9-4X.

Why do I get a mental picture tonight of Muller looking like Andy Garcia at the end of Oceans Eleven? Standing in his vault, wondering where all the money has gone and realising that he has just been shafted.

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

Pistachio said:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...

What a shame if true…...

Well, it would logically follow the pevious Autocar report at http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/... which said that the receivers were going to call back workers to complete the last 100 or so cars in order to sell them, but the unions vetoed the idea (for reasons unclear). All in all a bit crap...

Two theories on this;

1.) It might be something to do with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5IENbYftaY&fea...
This video was posted on the net in May to supposedly show completed cars coming off the line. I mentioned then that it seemed a little strange that the cars were being taken off the line with a fork lift rather than been driven off which is standard at most factories. My guess at the time was that these cars were not driveable and that it was done to impress future possible investors.
As the line has been shut for some time, the liabilty issues from cars that might or not have been 'fully' constructed would make these rather a risk for any new owner to deliver to future customers.

2.) If SAAB AB are about to withdraw the brand as I suspect, they wouldn't want anymore cars coming down the line with Saab written all over them.

If this is true and with the undue haste that the recievers are trying to get rid of the museum its not looking too good.
Interesting that supposedly included in the scrappage programme are 9-4Xs (test cars?) and all the 9-5 Estates bar one. I'm guessing that the 'first' 9-5 Estate that was delivered earlier in the year (which was heavily featured on SaabsUnited.) will be a real collectors item. Unless of course, that was done to impress future investors too and the customer never actually took delivery?..

[The Hypno-Toad]

Announced today that the skeleton staff that have been keeping the lights on in the factory will not be needed from Thursday. Reports are circulating that the landlords are very keen to see the factory cleared asap which suggests that may well have found a buyer for the buildings themselves
With that and the news about the museum being sold off things seem to be moving very quickly now. The chances that one big buyer will come in to re-start the whole thing seem to be disappearing rapidly.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Press Conference by the recievers at the factory on Saturday, watch this space.

Also Muller has now seemed to have sided himself the Turkish company Brightwell Holdings, releasing what almost amount to joint press releases.

Victor Muller said:

I believe Brightwell has sufficient funding to cope with this deal” says Victor Muller to TTELA

So that will be just like Vladamir Antonov, then Victor?...& HawTai.... & Youngman.... & PangDa......& North Street Capital.....& The Endeavour Advisory Group.....and that un-named Chinese bank.....& that un-named European high street bank?

If I was Brightwell I wouldn't want Mr Muller's personal reference to be honest.

[The Hypno-Toad]

drophead said:

Youngman are apparently flying into Trollhatten to sort out a new deal that will require much more money but will not require the Phoenix platform so GM can finally stop trying to kill off the damn brand as their platform and tech isn't needed anymore. Could this be the long shot that might just save SAAB?

Don't think so.

Youngman have now rooted round down the back of the sofa and have suddenly found 5 billion SEK!!!
Well thats according to the gorgeous pouting Ms Rachel Pang. Now remembering that they were offered the whole damn company by Muller in November for 100 million euros and that included both the NG 9-5 & the 9-4X which are now both off the table, why would they put forward a bid of 500 million euros for basically a production line for a 12 year old car that no one in Europe or the US wants to buy and a parts business? But I'm sure Muller is delighted to hear after stringing him along for nearly six months, that they suddenly have found all this cash.
My thoughts? They are going to try and do the same to recievers as they did to Muller. Make a huge offer then delay firming it up on it for so long that they then get whats left of the company for a third of the price as the recievers have got so far down the road with them they have nowhere else to go. And remember, they are already so convinced that they own the PhoeniX platform that they have set up a company in Stockholm to help turn it into a Youngman product.
However as has been proved with the undue haste with which the museum was flogged off, I think that any offer like the one from Youngman will have to be paid in full very, very quickly indeed as I get the impression the recievers want this over with as quickly as possible.

Plus will GM approve the deal?

Plus will SAAB AB let them keep the brand name? With the crushing of the cars and the selling off on the museum, I think that it points to them wanting to take the name back.

Not home and dry, not even home and towelling themselves off.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Confirmed today.

Whoever buys Saab will NOT get the new 9-5 or the 9-4X. GM will not let the IP of either of these two cars go to anyone says General Motors spokesman James Cain.
So if you have a new 9-5 you have a collectors car. slade will be pleased.

So as I mentioned yesterday the whole company is now the production line for the 12 year old 9-3 that no ones been buying anyway.

So how do Youngman now value that at 5 billion SEK???

Oh and nice to meet you Dr Banjo.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Friday 20th January 12:50