RE: BMW M235i: Driven

[dapearson]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I hate it when threads are derailed like this, but i'm trying to understand why you're behaving like this towards me.

[dapearson]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I used to have an E36 328i. Can we hug now?

[Zwolf]

RoverP6B said:

Is its engine hand-built in Garching? No? I think that answers the question as to whether it's a true M-car.

E31 850CSi featured an S designation M Power engine as well as a WBS chassis number prefix that denotes BMW M GmbH build rather than BMW AG. Is it a "true M Car"?

E52 Z8 features an S designation M Power engine also, handbuilt to blueprint spec to finer tolerance than the ones used in the line built contemporary M5. Is that?

Then there's the McLaren F1...

There's also the very first road car that BMW Motorsport built. The E12 M535i. Which featured a standard series engine. As did the next, the E28 M535i. The E9 CSL too...

These Mx35i and Mx50d cars don't claim to be "true M cars", neither by BMW, nor by M - it's tedious reading this every time one is mentioned. They sit in the spot that the E30 318iS & 325i Sport and E36 328i Sport used to occupy - the standard car with some cosmetic, chassis and mechanical changes (LSD in those instances) applied with some input from M to differentiate it from the regular cars and offer a sportier, more focussed drive without the full overhaul - and expense of a Motorsport developed car.

For me they sit neatly and clearly in a parallel model heirarchy as M Sport/M Performance/M, analagous to Audi S Line/S/RS.

As to it's comfort on motorways and "not a hairy chested sports car" credentials, that's just ludicrous. That's never really been the point of an M at all, their original USP was that you could buy all the comfort and luxury of a standard premium saloon and couple it with Ferrari matching/besting performance.

A possible exception exists in the cases of the Z3 based Ms, particularly the coupé - a skunkworks project that made production - which is how the E28 M5 came into being originally. With that and the M1 aside, everything else has been saloon derived sporting luxury cars. Porsche do the dedicated sports car stuff...

[s m]

Zwolf said:

RoverP6B said:

Is its engine hand-built in Garching? No? I think that answers the question as to whether it's a true M-car.

E31 850CSi featured an S designation M Power engine as well as a WBS chassis number prefix that denotes BMW M GmbH build rather than BMW AG. Is it a "true M Car"?

E52 Z8 features an S designation M Power engine also, handbuilt to blueprint spec to finer tolerance than the ones used in the line built contemporary M5. Is that?

Then there's the McLaren F1...

There's also the very first road car that BMW Motorsport built. The E12 M535i. Which featured a standard series engine. As did the next, the E28 M535i. The E9 CSL too...

Plus not forgetting the E30 320iS which has a Motorsport engine but isn't badged as an 'M'

[E65Ross]

Zwolf said:

RoverP6B said:

Is its engine hand-built in Garching? No? I think that answers the question as to whether it's a true M-car.

E31 850CSi featured an S designation M Power engine as well as a WBS chassis number prefix that denotes BMW M GmbH build rather than BMW AG. Is it a "true M Car"?

E52 Z8 features an S designation M Power engine also, handbuilt to blueprint spec to finer tolerance than the ones used in the line built contemporary M5. Is that?

Then there's the McLaren F1...

There's also the very first road car that BMW Motorsport built. The E12 M535i. Which featured a standard series engine. As did the next, the E28 M535i. The E9 CSL too...

These Mx35i and Mx50d cars don't claim to be "true M cars", neither by BMW, nor by M - it's tedious reading this every time one is mentioned. They sit in the spot that the E30 318iS & 325i Sport and E36 328i Sport used to occupy - the standard car with some cosmetic, chassis and mechanical changes (LSD in those instances) applied with some input from M to differentiate it from the regular cars and offer a sportier, more focussed drive without the full overhaul - and expense of a Motorsport developed car.

For me they sit neatly and clearly in a parallel model heirarchy as M Sport/M Performance/M, analagous to Audi S Line/S/RS.

As to it's comfort on motorways and "not a hairy chested sports car" credentials, that's just ludicrous. That's never really been the point of an M at all, their original USP was that you could buy all the comfort and luxury of a standard premium saloon and couple it with Ferrari matching/besting performance.

A possible exception exists in the cases of the Z3 based Ms, particularly the coupé - a skunkworks project that made production - which is how the E28 M5 came into being originally. With that and the M1 aside, everything else has been saloon derived sporting luxury cars. Porsche do the dedicated sports car stuff...

Check and mate

[Zwolf]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[RoverP6B]

Zwolf said:

E31 850CSi featured an S designation M Power engine as well as a WBS chassis number prefix that denotes BMW M GmbH build rather than BMW AG. Is it a "true M Car"?

I realise it's not quite a full-fat M8 (of which one exists, as you may be aware), but I'd have said that engine made it sufficiently different from the "ordinary" 850i to merit an M badge - after all, does anyone question the M-ness of the E24/E28 M635CSi/M535i? I understand that they were built by BMW AG, but they were so far above anything else in the range, not to mention a few supercars of the time... I have to confess I didn't know there was an E12 M535i! By these standards, one COULD argue that the 235i likewise deserves an M badge, but for me, it's the turbocharging that's the sticking point. Real M-cars must be naturally aspirated! The old CSLs are arguably a different kettle of fish as I don't think M GmbH had been formed then (unless anyone can tell me otherwise).

Zwolf said:

E52 Z8 features an S designation M Power engine also, handbuilt to blueprint spec to finer tolerance than the ones used in the line built contemporary M5. Is that?

Again, I'd have said that's a car that merits M badges, much more than a bodykitted 320d!

Zwolf said:

Then there's the McLaren F1...

Different kettle of fish, really, since (engine apart) the whole thing was designed and built in Woking.

Zwolf said:

These Mx35i and Mx50d cars don't claim to be "true M cars", neither by BMW, nor by M - it's tedious reading this every time one is mentioned. They sit in the spot that the E30 318iS & 325i Sport and E36 328i Sport used to occupy - the standard car with some cosmetic, chassis and mechanical changes (LSD in those instances) applied with some input from M to differentiate it from the regular cars and offer a sportier, more focussed drive without the full overhaul - and expense of a Motorsport developed car.

For me they sit neatly and clearly in a parallel model heirarchy as M Sport/M Performance/M, analagous to Audi S Line/S/RS.

These cars in no way deserve an M badge. They're not raced, unlike M3s and M5s. They have no motorsport credentials. A turbocharged petrol or diesel autobox 4x4 is about as far from the M ethos as it is possible to imagine. It's just a tacky, tasteless piece of badging.

Zwolf said:

As to it's comfort on motorways and "not a hairy chested sports car" credentials, that's just ludicrous. That's never really been the point of an M at all, their original USP was that you could buy all the comfort and luxury of a standard premium saloon and couple it with Ferrari matching/besting performance.

You forget how poorly-specified, by modern standards, the BMWs of the time were. If you wanted lots of luxury and gadgetry, you bought a Mercedes. BMWs were always a more austere, more focussed sort of motor car.

Zwolf said:

A possible exception exists in the cases of the Z3 based Ms, particularly the coupé - a skunkworks project that made production - which is how the E28 M5 came into being originally. With that and the M1 aside, everything else has been saloon derived sporting luxury cars. Porsche do the dedicated sports car stuff...

I wouldn't call the M3s of the E30, E36 or E46 generations luxury cars, especially not the E30 or the E46 CSL. They were and remain sports cars with extensive motorsport credentials. E46s are being raced to this day.

What I think I can deduce, both from your points and my responses, is that there are exceptions to every rule, nothing sticks hard and fast - but I'm not prepared to make it for the 235i...

[RoverP6B]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I realise you're probably aiming this at Zwolf, not me, but yes, I've completely lost interest in BMW's current output.

Zwolf, I suggest you do take a look at Jaguar. Their Engineered to Order division (where Evo's Harry Metcalfe now works) will do you more or less anything you want in an existing bodyshell and with one of their existing engines. I don't think they officially offer the F-type's V6 in the XF, though I may be mistaken, but I daresay ETO would build you one...

[s m]

RoverP6B said:

Zwolf said:

E31 850CSi featured an S designation M Power engine as well as a WBS chassis number prefix that denotes BMW M GmbH build rather than BMW AG. Is it a "true M Car"?

I realise it's not quite a full-fat M8 (of which one exists, as you may be aware), but I'd have said that engine made it sufficiently different from the "ordinary" 850i to merit an M badge - after all, does anyone question the M-ness of the E24/E28 M635CSi/M535i? I understand that they were built by BMW AG, but they were so far above anything else in the range, not to mention a few supercars of the time... I have to confess I didn't know there was an E12 M535i! By these standards, one COULD argue that the 235i likewise deserves an M badge, but for me, it's the turbocharging that's the sticking point. Real M-cars must be naturally aspirated! The old CSLs are arguably a different kettle of fish as I don't think M GmbH had been formed then (unless anyone can tell me otherwise).


...............................A turbocharged petrol is about as far from the M ethos as it is possible to imagine.

Hmm, I think you are cherry-picking which parts of the M ( previously Motorsport ) division history suit your preferences to be fair. The old CSL was developed by BMW Motorsport ( renamed to M later ), they also developed a 4-cylinder turbo car used extensively in racing and made available to the public - the 2002 Turbo. Definitely as much of a Motorsport car as the old CSL even if you don't like turbo petrols, right down to the Motorsport developed parts and stripes on the road cars

They have concentrated on naturally aspirated cars for much of their time, that's true, but I don't think turbocharging has ever been off limits to the M division - they're making a return to it now for sure

[RoverP6B]

You've quoted me out of context. I said that a turbo-petrol or diesel 4x4 is as far from the M ethos as is imaginable. I also don't accept that one low-volume car of 40-plus years ago justifies wholesale adoption of turbocharging...

[s m]

RoverP6B said:

You've quoted me out of context. I said that a turbo-petrol or diesel 4x4 is as far from the M ethos as is imaginable. I also don't accept that one low-volume car of 40-plus years ago justifies wholesale adoption of turbocharging...

Cars in general are moving towards turbocharging for various reasons, that is why modern M-cars will be turbocharged, just as their older cars were naturally aspirated ( as were most other cars of that time ).
They certainly didn't have too much trouble shifting the 1M which was low volume.

I don't think M- division will be overly worried that they'll have a lack of buyers for their turbo cars, maybe new ones . There was no World Wide Web back in the mid 80s but I can remember a fair few letters to car mags expressing dismay they weren't using a straight six for the 3-series M car, a 4-pot just didn't cut it for BMW purists........

[Mermaid]

s m said:

. There was no World Wide Web back in the mid 80s but I can remember a fair few letters to car mags expressing dismay they weren't using a straight six for the 3-series M car, a 4-pot just didn't cut it for BMW purists........

Good point, well made.

[s m]

Mermaid said:

s m said:

. There was no World Wide Web back in the mid 80s but I can remember a fair few letters to car mags expressing dismay they weren't using a straight six for the 3-series M car, a 4-pot just didn't cut it for BMW purists........

Good point, well made.

At some point there will be an M car for almost all tastes, even if you don't like the current ones

[RoverP6B]

This whole move towards turbos is entirely unnecessary, as Mazda is showing. It's fundamentally lazy engineering.

[Leins]

RoverP6B said:

stuff

Just to pull you up on one thing, I would call into question the //M-ness of the E28 M535i. Lovely car, but not the same scenario as the E12 M535i, as it was mechanically almost identical to the standard E28 535i. The irony being that the M-Technic bodykit which differentiated the two cars was only an option on the E28 M5


As for 6-cyl E30 "M3s", there have been a few but never sold in great numbers. This is my favourite thing with a BMW badge, despite not actually being a BMW

[RoverP6B]

Leins said:

Just to pull you up on one thing, I would call into question the //M-ness of the E28 M535i. Lovely car, but not the same scenario as the E12 M535i, as it was mechanically almost identical to the standard E28 535i. The irony being that the M-Technic bodykit which differentiated the two cars was only an option on the E28 M5


As for 6-cyl E30 "M3s", there have been a few but never sold in great numbers. This is my favourite thing with a BMW badge, despite not actually being a BMW

I've never been aware of the existence of a non-M E28 535i. Certainly never seen one. Maybe many of them have been 'up-badged'. Personally, I do think the E30 M3 should have been a 'six'. Absurd to have a four-pot two-door-only flagship costing more and delivering precious little performance benefit over a lightly tweaked six-cylinder available in all body styles... not that the E30 M3 isn't a great car, but I think it would have been even better with a 'six'.

[Leins]

RoverP6B said:

I've never been aware of the existence of a non-M E28 535i. Certainly never seen one. Maybe many of them have been 'up-badged'. Personally, I do think the E30 M3 should have been a 'six'. Absurd to have a four-pot two-door-only flagship costing more and delivering precious little performance benefit over a lightly tweaked six-cylinder available in all body styles... not that the E30 M3 isn't a great car, but I think it would have been even better with a 'six'.

I suspect a few 535i might have been going around without any badging actually, as the lack of M-Tech goodies turns it into a bit of a Q-car. Predecessor to the 550i SE I suppose

The plan for the E30 was to offer an alternative version too with the 24v 6-cyl from the E24 M635 fitted, but they weren't happy signing off on it for some reason, might have been cooling issues? But I don't believe it was ever a plan to race with that, and the 4-cyl S14-engined M3 remained the homologated car. Would have been a real shame IMO if the 4-cyl car had never been produced, as it's a magnificent vehicle, just full of excitement. Very different in character though to the M20-engined E30s, even when some of those are pushing out power-ratings not far off, or even matching, the M3s

But I still really want one of those 62 Alpina B6s, above, more than anything else

Edited by Leins on Thursday 30th January 03:06

[aeropilot]

RoverP6B said:

Personally, I do think the E30 M3 should have been a 'six'. Absurd to have a four-pot two-door-only flagship costing more and delivering precious little performance benefit over a lightly tweaked six-cylinder available in all body styles...

It might help your understanding of 'why' if you read up a bit on homolgation......

The E30 M3 wasn't a posers car, it was in effect the last 'true' ///M car, although you could maybe just make a case for the E92 M3 GTS.

[SonicHedgeHog]

Does the straight 6 engine in this car sound any good? I'm trying (and failing) to find a car I can fall in love with and engine note is a key ingredient.

[RoverP6B]

aeropilot said:

It might help your understanding of 'why' if you read up a bit on homolgation......

The E30 M3 wasn't a posers car, it was in effect the last 'true' ///M car, although you could maybe just make a case for the E92 M3 GTS.

Understood, but I don't quite comprehend why they were racing what was effectively a bored/stroked-out, M-fettled (albeit bhp-nearly-doubled!) 318i rather than a properly sorted six-cylinder - I would have thought that the vibrations of the out-of-balance 4-cylinder engine would make it undesirable for the kind of endurance racing (N24 and so on) to which the M3 was subjected...