What is the most overrated car manufacturer?
Discussion
shoestring7 said:
So 5.5m Beetles sold in the US over nearly four decades was a failed attempt to crack the US market then?
SS7
That was a thousand years ago. They replaced the Beetle with the Golf/Rabbit, early examples of which were crap. The US versions were even worse. Then Toyota starting making cars that were more reliable and better to drive, as did Honda and Nissan. THEN the Koreans showed up, and the game was over for VW. My folks moved to Canada years ago where VW's are treated with the same sort of disinterest as they are across the border. They're made in Mexico, are cheap and crap by and large. The paint finish is like something Alfa turned out in 1983 and the plastics are dismal. VW may have cleverly conned the UK into some kind of middle class hero worship but the Yanks are not fooled. They buy Korean and Japanese for good reason.SS7
However, Toyota have manufacturing plants in Canada and the US, and the product is still good. Certainly, the reliability and finish on my Folk's Canadian built 2005 Yaris was far superior to the VW Tiguan that replaced it4 years ago.
All the German stuff is over rated really because they just are not that well made or durable. They have all had major engine issues, cracked alloys and rusty arches. But when it comes down to it, all mocdern cars irrespective of badge are overcomplex and all cost pared to buggery under the skin.None of them are good long term (10 years/150'000 mile) prospects. Warranty expired? Good luck!
iSore said:
That was a thousand years ago. They replaced the Beetle with the Golf/Rabbit, early examples of which were crap. The US versions were even worse. Then Toyota starting making cars that were more reliable and better to drive, as did Honda and Nissan. THEN the Koreans showed up, and the game was over for VW. My folks moved to Canada years ago where VW's are treated with the same sort of disinterest as they are across the border. They're made in Mexico, are cheap and crap by and large. The paint finish is like something Alfa turned out in 1983 and the plastics are dismal. VW may have cleverly conned the UK into some kind of middle class hero worship but the Yanks are not fooled. They buy Korean and Japanese for good reason.
However, Toyota have manufacturing plants in Canada and the US, and the product is still good. Certainly, the reliability and finish on my Folk's Canadian built 2005 Yaris was far superior to the VW Tiguan that replaced it4 years ago.
This is pretty much what I was trying to say about the US market. They seem to see right through the VW bullsHowever, Toyota have manufacturing plants in Canada and the US, and the product is still good. Certainly, the reliability and finish on my Folk's Canadian built 2005 Yaris was far superior to the VW Tiguan that replaced it4 years ago.
t bubble we live in here. It's kind of like how an Australian finds it amusing that the fashion victims in the UK love Ugg boots and we laugh at Americans for paying over the odds for slimy vegetable oil filled Cadburys chocolate at their local exotic foreign food deli.My Uncle is on his fourth of fifth Audi now, and they have all been completely reliable. I don't find them terribly inyeresting but they are nicely finished and they aren't that dear. A base model 1.8 A4 or 318i is around 25 grand.If you want a shock, see how close Kia have got to 25 bags now for some really dull stuff.
Whilst I don't rate BMW at all for durability, their cars do drive well. I had to laugh at the commect earlier about the SE 320d handling like a boat. I drove one recently and like all the road testers, I thought it was a superb drive out in the Peaks.
There again, I prefer Vauxhalls to VW's..............
Whilst I don't rate BMW at all for durability, their cars do drive well. I had to laugh at the commect earlier about the SE 320d handling like a boat. I drove one recently and like all the road testers, I thought it was a superb drive out in the Peaks.
There again, I prefer Vauxhalls to VW's..............
I'll add my size 13 boot print into Audi. Every one of the half dozen(ish) recent models I've driven has been at best average in every area except perceived quality. People must just buy them without driving them, otherwise I have absolutely no idea how they sell so many.
The gripes about ride, handling and steering are an echo in here, but the biggest gripe I had was actually the last gen A4 2.0TDI I had as a courtesy car recently was the driving position. It had a massive transmission tunnel and the pedals were horribly offset to the right, the clutch pedal was more or less in line with the steering wheel! I can't believe it hasn't been widely noted, it's far worse than even the Evora which gets gripes for offset pedals!
Combined with the horrid, flat, uncomfortable seats and abrupt ride, even on the softest available suspension with the smallest wheels, it completely screwed up my back after more than an hour's driving. Literally the only thing it had going for it was the sound quality of the stereo, but even that was a pain to use.
The gripes about ride, handling and steering are an echo in here, but the biggest gripe I had was actually the last gen A4 2.0TDI I had as a courtesy car recently was the driving position. It had a massive transmission tunnel and the pedals were horribly offset to the right, the clutch pedal was more or less in line with the steering wheel! I can't believe it hasn't been widely noted, it's far worse than even the Evora which gets gripes for offset pedals!
Combined with the horrid, flat, uncomfortable seats and abrupt ride, even on the softest available suspension with the smallest wheels, it completely screwed up my back after more than an hour's driving. Literally the only thing it had going for it was the sound quality of the stereo, but even that was a pain to use.
yonex said:
jimbop1 said:
Have we found out what Beer Man drives yet? His profile just has a bicycle mentioned.
Is this because BMW took his company car off him when they sacked him?
Is this because BMW took his company car off him when they sacked him?
Anyone who cannot distinguish between the cooking and full fat cars from any car maker needs a lie down.
Saying that I need to try out a decent AMG and I may take my comment back. But the E39 M5 certainly falls into the dull category for me. The E60 may be a bit tastier though.
The issue is you get some right deluded people running these cars now that they're reachable to any old larry on a generic salary.
Hol said:
20 Years ago, ....
Today BMW have their faults, 'but they have deliberately dumbed down their range and their price/quality to become the new 'Cortina and Granada' of the current age.
In a nutshell. Both BMW and Merc decided to enter the volume sales sector about twentyfive years ago and did so with the great success. The evidence all around us now on UK roads and elsewhere. There are two Mercs on my next door neighbour's hard standing in front of their garage where once Montegos and Meganes were parked. In the other direction, those nice comfy Rover 75s have been replaced by Bee-Ems and Mercs. Clearly not over rated by some of my neighbours. Do I look up to them from my lowly under rated MGs and Rovers ? Most certainly not ..;)Today BMW have their faults, 'but they have deliberately dumbed down their range and their price/quality to become the new 'Cortina and Granada' of the current age.
Both these German makes have become the default Cortina and Granada in my neck of woods and many other parts of the UK if my observations are anything to go by. More ubiquitous than even VW and Audi which are far from rare. So, both BMW and Mercedes remarkably successful.
When I visit my younger brother in Essex, where are all the Fords and stuff of the previous Essex man? Even my Bro has a Bee-Em ... a six pot soft top..
So, worth repeating, certainly not under rated by Mr. and Mrs. average UK car consumer.
jimbop1 said:
m8rky said:
BMW and VAG, Hear endles stories of problems and engineered in expensive repairs on BMWs. Steering lock, light ecu designed to fail if no repair and engine faults.VAG seem to be generally unreliable contra to their image.
Yeh, Citroen have nothing on thoses BMW's. Have you ever driven one to compare the difference? I can honestly say it is vast!I have nothing against Citroens but I wouldn't be slagging BMW's off if I owned one
The title of the thread being over rated manufacturers, not about driving experience, and for the reasons stated I regard the two manufacturers I mentioned as over rated as they sell on reliabilty but in reality although not bad cars they are expensive to repair,needlesly over complicated resulting in high repair bils. They also breakdown more frequently than they would have you believe.
iSore said:
shoestring7 said:
So 5.5m Beetles sold in the US over nearly four decades was a failed attempt to crack the US market then?
SS7
That was a thousand years ago. blah blah blah VW may have cleverly conned the UK into some kind of middle class hero worship but the Yanks are not fooled. SS7
SS7
Sump said:
Not really, some people don't like generic mass products shells with a big engine chucked in it to make it a "wolfy" car...
Saying that I need to try out a decent AMG and I may take my comment back. But the E39 M5 certainly falls into the dull category for me. The E60 may be a bit tastier though.
The issue is you get some right deluded people running these cars now that they're reachable to any old larry on a generic salary.
What has salary got to do with how the cars are run? Just because someone isn't making whatever you definition of an acceptable salary is doesn't mean the car always suffers. In fact the worst offenders are people with lots of disposable income who expect the cars to travel between services without a single glance at anything. Oh you mean I had to inflate a tyre, but the on board sensor didn't mention it...Saying that I need to try out a decent AMG and I may take my comment back. But the E39 M5 certainly falls into the dull category for me. The E60 may be a bit tastier though.
The issue is you get some right deluded people running these cars now that they're reachable to any old larry on a generic salary.
shoestring7 said:
VW sold more than 4 million cars in the US in the last decade or so, so I guess they fooled quite a few Yanks.
SS7
But VW sales are falling. 400'000 a year?I'm fairly sure Toyota do 150'000 cars a month. The Camry may still be the best selling car in the US - the Passat doesn't even figure.SS7
Edited by iSore on Monday 3rd November 19:37
Europa1 said:
Pan Pan said:
All a SAAB is, is a Vauxhall Vectra with a different body.
Aside from the massive amounts of re-engineering which SAAB did to it which drove the GM beancounters bananas as it completely undermined the premise of it being simply a Vauxhall Vectra with a different body.yonex said:
Pan Pan said:
For the price Ferraris cost they should be superb throughout, but they are not
Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
If the engineers were told to make everything 'superb' the car that they produced would be so expensive nobody would buy it. To complain about a heat shield is a bit much, which exact model Ferrari are we talking about? The thin (and getting thinner) layer of veneer that VAG sprinkle on their cars is just that. Case in point. Every 5 year old Audi I have seen the controls are wearing out on the stereo and door switches, it's pretty poor. Still I guess when you get off on tie down rings..... it's a shame VAG don't pay as much attention to their coil packs, perhaps they need chrome plating as well to make them last more than 12 months at a time, do you think they should divert money away from the 'Heatshield Engineering Dept' Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
If you think a bit of welding rod tacked to the boot floor as a tie down, is acceptable quality on a car costing virtually the same as an equivalent VAG product, then I would hate to think what else you deem is acceptable in terms of quality.
As for a |Ferrari one would expect the heat shield to be attached in more professional way than spiking it onto nails welded to the engine bay bulkhead. Not acceptable on a car costing ten thousand pounds, absolutely awful on a car for which over one hundred thousand pound is being charged.
Lost soul said:
Beer Man said:
THE most overrated?
BMW.
to be fair, their marketing department must be staffed entirely by genius types as their cars are f****** awful
What absolute bBMW.
to be fair, their marketing department must be staffed entirely by genius types as their cars are f****** awful
ks Seriously, Beer Man - go out and test drive a bunch of new cars and tell me that most BMWs aren't class-leading in terms of handling and ergonomics.
yonex said:
Sump said:
Not really, some people don't like generic mass products shells with a big engine chucked in it to make it a "wolfy" car...
Saying that I need to try out a decent AMG and I may take my comment back. But the E39 M5 certainly falls into the dull category for me. The E60 may be a bit tastier though.
The issue is you get some right deluded people running these cars now that they're reachable to any old larry on a generic salary.
What has salary got to do with how the cars are run? Just because someone isn't making whatever you definition of an acceptable salary is doesn't mean the car always suffers. In fact the worst offenders are people with lots of disposable income who expect the cars to travel between services without a single glance at anything. Oh you mean I had to inflate a tyre, but the on board sensor didn't mention it...Saying that I need to try out a decent AMG and I may take my comment back. But the E39 M5 certainly falls into the dull category for me. The E60 may be a bit tastier though.
The issue is you get some right deluded people running these cars now that they're reachable to any old larry on a generic salary.
The next step on the slope is where the car prices drop in to the 'bargain' sector where anyone breathing can afford to buy one - but not to maintain it properly. Previous significant examples include, the Cosworth (all variants), the Impreza, the M3/5/6, the EVO, the Boxter, the S2000, the X5, the ML merc and the RR Sport.
Before long, we will be seeing the R35 GTR, 997 Porkers and the R8.
Pan Pan said:
yonex said:
Pan Pan said:
For the price Ferraris cost they should be superb throughout, but they are not
Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
If the engineers were told to make everything 'superb' the car that they produced would be so expensive nobody would buy it. To complain about a heat shield is a bit much, which exact model Ferrari are we talking about? The thin (and getting thinner) layer of veneer that VAG sprinkle on their cars is just that. Case in point. Every 5 year old Audi I have seen the controls are wearing out on the stereo and door switches, it's pretty poor. Still I guess when you get off on tie down rings..... it's a shame VAG don't pay as much attention to their coil packs, perhaps they need chrome plating as well to make them last more than 12 months at a time, do you think they should divert money away from the 'Heatshield Engineering Dept' Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
If you think a bit of welding rod tacked to the boot floor as a tie down, is acceptable quality on a car costing virtually the same as an equivalent VAG product, then I would hate to think what else you deem is acceptable in terms of quality.
As for a |Ferrari one would expect the heat shield to be attached in more professional way than spiking it onto nails welded to the engine bay bulkhead. Not acceptable on a car costing ten thousand pounds, absolutely awful on a car for which over one hundred thousand pound is being charged.
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