BMW, Mercedes or Audi?
Discussion
Sump said:
Patrick Bateman said:
AudiWurst said:
Do you work for VW/Audi? Or are you just a fanboy?
Reliability isn't everyone's priority.For what it's worth, I'm not into Japanese cars either. I don't care if they're more reliable, on the whole, the Japs don't do interiors to match the Germans.
Try finding that on my LS430
I have a VW Golf TDI as a second car motorway muncher which does the exact same thing.
Patrick Bateman said:
Hilarious, innit.
What do you want me to say? That interior you've posted looks like it's been shafted.
The likes of Nissan, Honda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mazda and Toyota, more often than not, do not have interiors as nice as the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen.
Lexus would be the obvious exception.
Yes hilarious that people think the German What do you want me to say? That interior you've posted looks like it's been shafted.
The likes of Nissan, Honda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mazda and Toyota, more often than not, do not have interiors as nice as the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen.
Lexus would be the obvious exception.
And Euro interiors are better than say japanesse
American !!!! No they are just different, Personal preference it's mostly
Due to what you grew up with and the utter crap
We had from journalists when they tested cars,
acres of hard black plastic,flat rock hard seats
Indicator switches on the wrong side ,,? It's only recently
German cars stoped looking like a industrial control panel
Inside!!!
Edited by powerstroke on Friday 10th January 08:09
Sump said:
Patrick Bateman said:
AudiWurst said:
Do you work for VW/Audi? Or are you just a fanboy?
Reliability isn't everyone's priority.For what it's worth, I'm not into Japanese cars either. I don't care if they're more reliable, on the whole, the Japs don't do interiors to match the Germans.
Try finding that on my LS430
http://www.bimmian.com/DIO/92/?cur=CHF
va1o said:
Bit rich coming from someone with Audi in their username 
Anyway I don't see how my place of work is relevant here, I like their cars its as simple as that.
My username is intended to be self-mocking. "AudiWurst" refers to Audi's "sausage machine" approach to styling their cars. The A4 in my garage is mainly driven by my wife - she's an Audi fan-girl. If it was my choice, she'd be driving something Japanese.Anyway I don't see how my place of work is relevant here, I like their cars its as simple as that.
I didn't mean to sound critical. You post a lot of very useful stuff in GG and the VW/Audi section, and seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of VW model histories, spec levels, facelift years etc etc. I'd always assumed you were a VW/Audi employee, or a fleet manager with a lot of VWs in his fleet.
Not sure if it's been mentioned but it's worth pointing out that Audi receives all new technology first in the VAG, and then it trickles down to Seats and Skodas etc. albeit with few exceptions like the current A3, Golf, Leon Octavia etc.
Rather than saying Audis are cheapened by part sharing with others it should be commended that 'value' or 'budget' brands such as Seat and Skoda use 'expensive' German parts. At least Audi use German parts and ate made in Germany by Germans (majority of models) just like BMW, and Mercedes.
So it's just when they're on the used market you can choose the equivalent sized VW/Seat/Skoda and have a comparable car to the Audi offering.
Also Audi, although catering for the masses as they sell to ordinary drivers, should be commended for accepting and actively trying to offer drivers cars with the extended RS range and the mooted lightened models with RWD bias quattro. I still accept some models have no steering feedback. But to most that doesn't matter.
I don't work for Audi I must add, nor do I own one. Just my 2ps worth...
Rather than saying Audis are cheapened by part sharing with others it should be commended that 'value' or 'budget' brands such as Seat and Skoda use 'expensive' German parts. At least Audi use German parts and ate made in Germany by Germans (majority of models) just like BMW, and Mercedes.
So it's just when they're on the used market you can choose the equivalent sized VW/Seat/Skoda and have a comparable car to the Audi offering.
Also Audi, although catering for the masses as they sell to ordinary drivers, should be commended for accepting and actively trying to offer drivers cars with the extended RS range and the mooted lightened models with RWD bias quattro. I still accept some models have no steering feedback. But to most that doesn't matter.
I don't work for Audi I must add, nor do I own one. Just my 2ps worth...
RevoEvo7 said:
Also Audi, although catering for the masses as they sell to ordinary drivers, should be commended for accepting and actively trying to offer drivers cars with the extended RS range and the mooted lightened models with RWD bias quattro. I still accept some models have no steering feedback. But to most that doesn't matter.
They try, but for me fall short, as all the RS models seem to have a certain 'Audiness' about them. With BMW's M range and Merc's AMG range, the sporty aspects of the drive from lower models gets amplified (even the base C class and 3 series can be hurled down a B road and are huge fun in the right hands), but with Audis there is no sportiness from the lower models and the RS models simply seem to gain pace, but in a very efficient and undramatic way. Perhaps that's their aim though? If I get in a run of the mill 320d or C220d I know I'm going to be up on tip toes through the corners, perhaps with the tail out a bit if I want, but if I get in an A4 2.0TDi I know I'm going to feel like I'm in a business class cabin - lovely interior around me, nice sound system, pleasing control weights, everything at my fingertips, wife asleep! I got attacked for saying this recently, but for me the RS models just offer all of that with more pace, grip and traction.RobM77 said:
RevoEvo7 said:
Also Audi, although catering for the masses as they sell to ordinary drivers, should be commended for accepting and actively trying to offer drivers cars with the extended RS range and the mooted lightened models with RWD bias quattro. I still accept some models have no steering feedback. But to most that doesn't matter.
They try, but for me fall short, as all the RS models seem to have a certain 'Audiness' about them. With BMW's M range and Merc's AMG range, the sporty aspects of the drive from lower models gets amplified (even the base C class and 3 series can be hurled down a B road and are huge fun in the right hands), but with Audis there is no sportiness from the lower models and the RS models simply seem to gain pace, but in a very efficient and undramatic way. Perhaps that's their aim though? If I get in a run of the mill 320d or C220d I know I'm going to be up on tip toes through the corners, perhaps with the tail out a bit if I want, but if I get in an A4 2.0TDi I know I'm going to feel like I'm in a business class cabin - lovely interior around me, nice sound system, pleasing control weights, everything at my fingertips, wife asleep! I got attacked for saying this recently, but for me the RS models just offer all of that with more pace, grip and traction.RobM77 said:
hey try, but for me fall short, as all the RS models seem to have a certain 'Audiness' about them. With BMW's M range and Merc's AMG range, the sporty aspects of the drive from lower models gets amplified (even the base C class and 3 series can be hurled down a B road and are huge fun in the right hands), but with Audis there is no sportiness from the lower models and the RS models simply seem to gain pace, but in a very efficient and undramatic way. Perhaps that's their aim though? If I get in a run of the mill 320d or C220d I know I'm going to be up on tip toes through the corners, perhaps with the tail out a bit if I want, but if I get in an A4 2.0TDi I know I'm going to feel like I'm in a business class cabin - lovely interior around me, nice sound system, pleasing control weights, everything at my fingertips, wife asleep! I got attacked for saying this recently, but for me the RS models just offer all of that with more pace, grip and traction.
I would disagree. I find most Audis to be fairly well balanced, grippy, and enjoyable to drive for road cars. Not as dynamic as the rear drive set, no, but usually faster, more composed, and less fatigue inducing at the limit. When one drives with sympathy for the AWD nature of the chassis, they can be quite enjoyable. My old basic B6 A4 quattro was great to drive on our Landstrassen.Grandfondo said:
RobM77 said:
RevoEvo7 said:
Also Audi, although catering for the masses as they sell to ordinary drivers, should be commended for accepting and actively trying to offer drivers cars with the extended RS range and the mooted lightened models with RWD bias quattro. I still accept some models have no steering feedback. But to most that doesn't matter.
They try, but for me fall short, as all the RS models seem to have a certain 'Audiness' about them. With BMW's M range and Merc's AMG range, the sporty aspects of the drive from lower models gets amplified (even the base C class and 3 series can be hurled down a B road and are huge fun in the right hands), but with Audis there is no sportiness from the lower models and the RS models simply seem to gain pace, but in a very efficient and undramatic way. Perhaps that's their aim though? If I get in a run of the mill 320d or C220d I know I'm going to be up on tip toes through the corners, perhaps with the tail out a bit if I want, but if I get in an A4 2.0TDi I know I'm going to feel like I'm in a business class cabin - lovely interior around me, nice sound system, pleasing control weights, everything at my fingertips, wife asleep! I got attacked for saying this recently, but for me the RS models just offer all of that with more pace, grip and traction.
I'm almost certain you're right.white_goodman said:
Obviously not you but I would happily wager that if you asked 10 people at random say, that they would rather own an Audi or Mercedes than a Hyundai or Kia for example. 
I have owned and Audi Coupe Quatrro & 2 x BMW 3 series also a Hyundai Coupe and out the lot the Hyundai has been the best for build quality, fuel, servicing, reliability, insurance. it shows the others the way and can be fun to drive. What does surprise me of late is the number of E46 BMWs ten years old or thereabouts that have significant rust on them - not just the arches, but door edges, bonnets, tailgates, in fact in areas where I would have thought more attention to detail would have been given.
Premium german cars benefit from premium marketing and perhaps the proof of the pudding with regards to quality isn't so much the new and fresh out of the box showroom examples, but those maybe five or ten years down the line.
Given a choice between running a reliable car at these ages, the gut instinct is to turn to the Japanese and not the Germans. The devil is not in the detail, it's in the big structural and design aspects that the Germans promote, but don't get right - and couple that to dealer attitudes that are at best described as mediocre then they present a long term proposition that is questionable. They may be a no brainer for the company car market, but long term as a private proposition they leave very real and nagging quality questions.
Premium german cars benefit from premium marketing and perhaps the proof of the pudding with regards to quality isn't so much the new and fresh out of the box showroom examples, but those maybe five or ten years down the line.
Given a choice between running a reliable car at these ages, the gut instinct is to turn to the Japanese and not the Germans. The devil is not in the detail, it's in the big structural and design aspects that the Germans promote, but don't get right - and couple that to dealer attitudes that are at best described as mediocre then they present a long term proposition that is questionable. They may be a no brainer for the company car market, but long term as a private proposition they leave very real and nagging quality questions.
scherzkeks said:
RobM77 said:
hey try, but for me fall short, as all the RS models seem to have a certain 'Audiness' about them. With BMW's M range and Merc's AMG range, the sporty aspects of the drive from lower models gets amplified (even the base C class and 3 series can be hurled down a B road and are huge fun in the right hands), but with Audis there is no sportiness from the lower models and the RS models simply seem to gain pace, but in a very efficient and undramatic way. Perhaps that's their aim though? If I get in a run of the mill 320d or C220d I know I'm going to be up on tip toes through the corners, perhaps with the tail out a bit if I want, but if I get in an A4 2.0TDi I know I'm going to feel like I'm in a business class cabin - lovely interior around me, nice sound system, pleasing control weights, everything at my fingertips, wife asleep! I got attacked for saying this recently, but for me the RS models just offer all of that with more pace, grip and traction.
I would disagree. I find most Audis to be fairly well balanced, grippy, and enjoyable to drive for road cars. Not as dynamic as the rear drive set, no, but usually faster, more composed, and less fatigue inducing at the limit. When one drives with sympathy for the AWD nature of the chassis, they can be quite enjoyable. My old basic B6 A4 quattro was great to drive on our Landstrassen.CraigyMc said:
Sump said:
Patrick Bateman said:
AudiWurst said:
Do you work for VW/Audi? Or are you just a fanboy?
Reliability isn't everyone's priority.For what it's worth, I'm not into Japanese cars either. I don't care if they're more reliable, on the whole, the Japs don't do interiors to match the Germans.
Try finding that on my LS430
http://www.bimmian.com/DIO/92/?cur=CHF
C
RobM77 said:
Hmm.. I had some race coaching from Mark Hales in his A5 2.0TDi a couple of years ago. I was very impressed with the car - good steering wheel, no/little throttle lag, very good damping and spring rates etc. It was a very nice car to drive on the limit and I've no doubt it was supremely good at comfortable cruising on the road. However, I really missed that tip toe balance and chassis feel that you get from a BMW, or just the plain old balance that a Merc gives you. Even my 320d puts a huge grin on my face every single time I take a roundabout or a twisty B road - on the standard wheels and standard suspension, a 3 series of that era has a very pure and linear drive to it and a lovely balance. I had a brand new A4 2.0TDi for three months last year as a courtesy car (a drunk lady bounced her Focus off my BMW several times!) and I found it very soggy and uninvolving on the same roads. It had a much nicer interior than my BMW and a better stereo, but it was very nose heavy and numb to drive quickly - nowhere near as good as the A5 actually. My wife also complained of the noise at speed too - we couldn't chat quietly on the motorway anymore - we had to raise our voices. It also did less to the gallon and produced less power. Nice interior and stereo though, plus I got let out of junctions and had three months without road rage, which was lovely.
The mushiness could have been down to tires. My B6 never felt mushy (for a standard road car), except on winter rubber. I think what puts some RWD guys off quattros is excessive understeer from the chassis on rapid corner exit when when exiting too fast - solved of course by avoiding excess throttle on steering lock. Most Audis will also do the lift-throttle tuck quite neatly as well. Personally, I like the stability, even if some deem it uninvolving. Am not a fan of a nervous chassis.scherzkeks said:
C
I think the main difference to RWD is the weight distribution and setup. Excessive lock or throttle will cause understeer in any car. FWD & 4WD cars almost always have inherent understeer, though whilst this can be minimised with clever setup, Audi clearly set their cars up for a very 'steady' balance.RobM77 said:
Hmm.. I had some race coaching from Mark Hales in his A5 2.0TDi a couple of years ago. I was very impressed with the car - good steering wheel, no/little throttle lag, very good damping and spring rates etc. It was a very nice car to drive on the limit and I've no doubt it was supremely good at comfortable cruising on the road. However, I really missed that tip toe balance and chassis feel that you get from a BMW, or just the plain old balance that a Merc gives you. Even my 320d puts a huge grin on my face every single time I take a roundabout or a twisty B road - on the standard wheels and standard suspension, a 3 series of that era has a very pure and linear drive to it and a lovely balance. I had a brand new A4 2.0TDi for three months last year as a courtesy car (a drunk lady bounced her Focus off my BMW several times!) and I found it very soggy and uninvolving on the same roads. It had a much nicer interior than my BMW and a better stereo, but it was very nose heavy and numb to drive quickly - nowhere near as good as the A5 actually. My wife also complained of the noise at speed too - we couldn't chat quietly on the motorway anymore - we had to raise our voices. It also did less to the gallon and produced less power. Nice interior and stereo though, plus I got let out of junctions and had three months without road rage, which was lovely.
The mushiness could have been down to tires. My B6 never felt mushy (for a standard road car), except on winter rubber. I think what puts some RWD guys off quattros is excessive understeer from the chassis on rapid corner exit when when exiting too fast - solved of course by avoiding excess throttle on steering lock. Most Audis will also do the lift-throttle tuck quite neatly as well. Personally, I like the stability, even if some deem it uninvolving. Am not a fan of a nervous chassis.RobM77 said:
I think the main difference to RWD is the weight distribution and setup. Excessive lock or throttle will cause understeer in any car. FWD & 4WD cars almost always have inherent understeer, though whilst this can be minimised with clever setup, Audi clearly set their cars up for a very 'steady' balance.
My point is that the "understeer" so often criticized in a sort of vague, generalized way when it comes to Audi often results from the described situation, which usually happens to (1) inexperienced drivers, (2) drivers who don't respect the AWD nature of the chassis. AWD cars are particularly susceptible to the corner exit understeer scenario because the rear tires have a tendency to push the chassis over (in this scenario) the overworked fronts. Hence understeer is often worse than in a FWD car. This understeer can be almost entirely eliminated up to and slightly beyond the tractive limit if the driver is patient, uses as much tarmac as possible, and adopts a slow-in, fast-out style. Dave Hedgehog said:
RobM77 said:
Audi clearly set their cars up for a very 'steady' balance.
i suspect Audi have taken the safe handling route ever since the TT deaths and all the bad PR that generated The 4wd Mk.2 TT had the handling characteristics of a dart - all the weight in the nose. I tried the V6 for a weekend while deciding what to get as a company car.
That understeered like mad, and actually wasn't all that much quicker than the 2.0 car, while using much more fuel. It did make a lovely noise though!
I like oversteer as much as the next guy, by the way. In racing karts I tend to drive with a neutral-to-mild-oversteer type of balance.
The TT I mention wasn't at all tail happy, but with the stability control off it'd at least do lift-off oversteer if you were brutal with it.
It's just really not what it was for though, to my mind at least. Fun to a point, then you get to the limit of the chassis before it all gets exciting.
CraigyMc said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
RobM77 said:
Audi clearly set their cars up for a very 'steady' balance.
i suspect Audi have taken the safe handling route ever since the TT deaths and all the bad PR that generated The 4wd one had the handling characteristics of a dart - all the weight in the nose. I tried the V6 for a weekend while deciding what to get as a company car.
That understeered like mad, and actually wasn't all that much quicker than the petrol car, while using much more fuel. It did make a lovely noise though!
I like oversteer as much as the next guy, by the way. In racing karts I tend to drive with a neutral-to-mild-oversteer type of balance.
The TT I mention wasn't at all tail happy, but with the stability control off it'd at least do lift-off oversteer if you were brutal with it.
It's just really not what it was for though, to my mind at least. Fun to a point, then you get to the limit of the chassis before it all gets exciting.
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