The illusion of SUV safety
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I suspect that it's fair to say that the SUVs which are based on road cars will have a higher CoG and with the same floor pans would surely be marginally less stable?
As a general rule of thumb I wouldn't be overly unclined to enter an SUV at Le Mans.
On average you're probably right but most of the major and heavy components are quite low in SUVs and People carriera; just for devilment I notice the Truck racing fraternity manage to get their Artic tractors to corner a some very high speeds without falling over.As a general rule of thumb I wouldn't be overly unclined to enter an SUV at Le Mans.
I'd like to reply in a PH approved amusing manner but unfortunately I'm trapped underneath my car after it rolled over while retrieving a few bits from the boot.
Still, could be worse. I could actually believe some of the crap I've been spouting but that would make me just as daft as those who froth about the type of car other road users drive. Luckily I'm saved from such a sad fate, I just hope that the recovery vehicle isn't a 4x4 or there'll be two upturned cars in this car park.
Still, could be worse. I could actually believe some of the crap I've been spouting but that would make me just as daft as those who froth about the type of car other road users drive. Luckily I'm saved from such a sad fate, I just hope that the recovery vehicle isn't a 4x4 or there'll be two upturned cars in this car park.
IroningMan said:
Willy Nilly said:
lostkiwi said:
Its pretty hard to take anyone who describes their car history as a series of colours (I bought ared one, then a darker red one yadda yadda yadda) seriously.
He's obviously a troll with nothing sensible to contribute.
ages ago I saw an interview on the telly with a Zsa Zsa Gabor type actress that when asked what car she drove replied "a blue one" and it made my laugh. He's obviously a troll with nothing sensible to contribute.
A fellow in a Honda Jazz once tried to kill me through his inattention and complete lack of fitness to be on the road; I'll make the same assumption about Jazz drivers as you do about 4x4 drivers and give you a wide berth.
drdel said:
REF: First paragraph. Subjective waffle; full of false assertions demonstrating you clearly know nothing about automotive design engineering, the safety regulations and/or testing procedures.
A Discovery 4 has 256hp. To put that into perspective, a DAF LF would need the larger of the two engine options in the middle of the power output options to have 256hp. SUV's are just big cars, so get limited to towing 3.5 tonnes. 3.5 tonnes is bugger all for 256hp. The reason such powerful vehicles get limited to such a small trailer is that they don't have brakes to stop it, they cannot actuate the brakes on the trailer, so the trailer is shackled with surge brakes and the hitch is probably a meter from the back axle.
If you have ever towed anything bigger than a trailer tent you will know what it's like having the hitch so far away. Look at where an artics trailer attatches to the tractor unit. When you load them the, weight is loaded evenly on the tractor and the whole unit squats down as one and the axles loaded correctly. No matter how big you SUV is, when you load your trailer any weight on the draw bar has leverage on the back of the vehicle and removes weight from the front. On a big car like a Discovery or Range Rover there will still be weight on the front, but the trailer does affect the weight distribution.
It's fine having 256hp with 3.5 tonnes behind it because no matter what the hill it will sprint up it and any load on the engine and drive train won't be prolonged. But 256hp is easily enough for 18t gross at road speeds, how will an automotive type drive train stand full load, low gear loads? Not long.
drdel said:
REF your last paragraph - So why do you insist on challenging and rubbishing the choices of other people?
I'm not bothered that people have SUV's, it's the NEED bit. Right now at 18:05 I would be very surprised if there is any house in the entire UK that is inaccessible to my CBR600, yet some people move to the country (where I live and work) and simply must have a 4x4. It would be very interesting to see how many houses are inaccessible and for how many days this winter for a car on winter tyres this winter. Remember, if a car can't get to your house, nor can the postman, nor can the bin men, nor can a paramedic, or the ambulance, not can anyone delivering heating fuel. The weather forcasts normally give a weeks notice now for heavy snow, so it's quite possible to work around being snowed in a couple of days. We had 2 feet of snow over night twice while I worked in the USA and we just stayed off the road. It was funny watching some numpty in his 4x4 F150, he thought he could drive through snow drift. He dug it out eventually. Following the logic of SUV owning new country dwellers, I now live near the sea and an international airport, should I buy an aeroplane and a boat? Or a flying boat?
At work we have a Ranger, 90 Defender and a Trooper as pool vehicles. We need 4x4s 'coz we've got a load of land and s
t and when I need to go to town for parts and stuff, I take the Transit because it's nice to drive and you can actually carry more than a large suitcase in the back. I avoid driving the 4x4s where possible. doogz said:
Willy Nilly said:
but it is a serious and focused bit of kit
is about a Honda Jazz?Have I got that right?
The whole design focuses on being small, practical, reliable little cars. I did seriously consider an FN2 Type R, but wasn't convinced it would be very good at what it was actually going to get used for, so bought the right tool for the job. Besides, there is plenty of performance in my shed.
I love my Range Rover.
It's big enough for my two labs, pushchair and all the other baby gear in the boot. The car seat fits in the back and still leaves space for two adults, it's high enough, so when I put the little ones chair in and out of the iso fix holder, I don't bugger my back leaning down, it's full of leather and toys and things that make my life that little bit better.
The driving position trumps any car I own or have owned, I can fold the seats and stick my bike in the back, do tip runs etc. I can drive it to work or on a shoot or tow the track car, it 'manages' everything with ease. I believe some faux 4x4 owners do just buy them for the 'look at me' factor, or because they believe they're safe. But not all of us do.
Having owned numerous estates, E63, RS4, 535d.. They're fine. The Range Rover is just better for my needs.
It hasn't fallen over once either. Amazing that.
It's big enough for my two labs, pushchair and all the other baby gear in the boot. The car seat fits in the back and still leaves space for two adults, it's high enough, so when I put the little ones chair in and out of the iso fix holder, I don't bugger my back leaning down, it's full of leather and toys and things that make my life that little bit better.
The driving position trumps any car I own or have owned, I can fold the seats and stick my bike in the back, do tip runs etc. I can drive it to work or on a shoot or tow the track car, it 'manages' everything with ease. I believe some faux 4x4 owners do just buy them for the 'look at me' factor, or because they believe they're safe. But not all of us do.
Having owned numerous estates, E63, RS4, 535d.. They're fine. The Range Rover is just better for my needs.
It hasn't fallen over once either. Amazing that.
Willy Nilly said:
I'm not bothered that people have SUV's, it's the NEED bit. Right now at 18:05 I would be very surprised if there is any house in the entire UK that is inaccessible to my CBR600, yet some people move to the country (where I live and work) and simply must have a 4x4. It would be very interesting to see how many houses are inaccessible and for how many days this winter for a car on winter
So it bothers you that some folk don't "need" a 4x4 but own one anyway?...... 
If what others decide to spend their money on isn't what you agree with......best prepare yourself for a pretty sad life..
As for towing. I managed to tow my E30 M3 by not loading the cars entire weight on the tow bar, spreading it over the trailers twin axle and some of the mass actually behind the trailer axle.
Admittedly the trailer brakes are pretty poo, but I've never once thought "I really should buy myself an artic to do this" instead of my every day car.
Admittedly the trailer brakes are pretty poo, but I've never once thought "I really should buy myself an artic to do this" instead of my every day car.
doogz said:
That's true, however as far as I can tell, certain people are suggesting that 4x4's are dangerous, because they roll to easily, their CoG is too high.
We'd be much better off with a tractor, or a tractor unit, because they all have sports car like CoGs?
There is certainly a lot of logic in everyone driving an HGV. You can then have with you at all times a tractor for off-roading, a Caterham for fast twisties, room for horses, heavy loads and the family. I've been surprised that you haven't seen the blatantly obvious sense and convenience. We'd be much better off with a tractor, or a tractor unit, because they all have sports car like CoGs?
Willy Nilly said:
It, like most of its competitors are very focused vehicles. They are not shackled by being performance cars or cars to go off the road but never get taken off the road, but need to to retain some off road ability which compromises their on road ability even though they never get taken off the road.
The whole design focuses on being small, practical, reliable little cars. I did seriously consider an FN2 Type R, but wasn't convinced it would be very good at what it was actually going to get used for, so bought the right tool for the job. Besides, there is plenty of performance in my shed.
Bizarre. So small practical cars are good but big (more...) practical cars are bad?The whole design focuses on being small, practical, reliable little cars. I did seriously consider an FN2 Type R, but wasn't convinced it would be very good at what it was actually going to get used for, so bought the right tool for the job. Besides, there is plenty of performance in my shed.
Last weekend I was following a small SUV - a Hyundai Tucson. Without warning the SUV veered all over the road at considerable speed, skimmed a lamppost, hit the curb and rolled down a 30 foot slope.
Being first on the scene I stopped and climbed down the slope to render assistance. I desperately tried to remember my first aid training and prepared myself for the inevitable blood and gore. The Tucson was on its side, the windscreen was shattered, it was otherwise intact. The driver (hysterical woman) and a child clambered out unhurt.
This was a car that rolled down a 30 foot slope, it must have fully rotated two or three times. The occupants suffered not a scratch.
Being first on the scene I stopped and climbed down the slope to render assistance. I desperately tried to remember my first aid training and prepared myself for the inevitable blood and gore. The Tucson was on its side, the windscreen was shattered, it was otherwise intact. The driver (hysterical woman) and a child clambered out unhurt.
This was a car that rolled down a 30 foot slope, it must have fully rotated two or three times. The occupants suffered not a scratch.
A transit is better to drive than a 4x4 ... right. There might be some 4x4s that are worse to drive on road than a transit, but there are plenty that are a lot better.
This thread had had more than a few bizarre vignettes. 4x4s aren't as good at towing things as a tractor. No st. However if you want a compromise between a family car and a towing vehicle and you're only towing a modest amount, then a 4x4 is a more sensible choice than a tractor. Or a Fiesta.
A light car can go anywhere a 4x4 can. Well my driveway is a 1/4 mile long 1 in 6 pair of concrete strips across a Welsh hillside. It is regularly covered in liquid st, mud or snow. So ground clearance and 4x4 with locking diff is handy even if only absolutely necessary a few times a year. And a 2nd hand 4x4 is a very cheap way of buying those features. I also have a TVR and I can tell you which one struggles to get up the drive.
Can the hilux corner as quickly as the TVR? No. Obviously even a TVR handles better than a hilux. However cornering speed on UK roads is primarily limited by sight lines. If driving vaguely legally and responsibly, the difference in driving time from A to B cross country in the UK is bugger all between those two cars.
Both cars have fuel economy that could be better. Both cars have safety that could be better ... the TVR being far the worst of the two.
Both can do fairly pointless things that most cars cannot do. And this is part of their fun.
Obviously I don't park them side by side in case a falling leaf rolls the hilux onto the tiv.
This thread had had more than a few bizarre vignettes. 4x4s aren't as good at towing things as a tractor. No s
t. However if you want a compromise between a family car and a towing vehicle and you're only towing a modest amount, then a 4x4 is a more sensible choice than a tractor. Or a Fiesta.A light car can go anywhere a 4x4 can. Well my driveway is a 1/4 mile long 1 in 6 pair of concrete strips across a Welsh hillside. It is regularly covered in liquid s
t, mud or snow. So ground clearance and 4x4 with locking diff is handy even if only absolutely necessary a few times a year. And a 2nd hand 4x4 is a very cheap way of buying those features. I also have a TVR and I can tell you which one struggles to get up the drive.Can the hilux corner as quickly as the TVR? No. Obviously even a TVR handles better than a hilux. However cornering speed on UK roads is primarily limited by sight lines. If driving vaguely legally and responsibly, the difference in driving time from A to B cross country in the UK is bugger all between those two cars.
Both cars have fuel economy that could be better. Both cars have safety that could be better ... the TVR being far the worst of the two.
Both can do fairly pointless things that most cars cannot do. And this is part of their fun.
Obviously I don't park them side by side in case a falling leaf rolls the hilux onto the tiv.
Spoof said:
I love my Range Rover.
It's big enough for my two labs, pushchair and all the other baby gear in the boot. The car seat fits in the back and still leaves space for two adults, it's high enough, so when I put the little ones chair in and out of the iso fix holder, I don't bugger my back leaning down, it's full of leather and toys and things that make my life that little bit better.
The driving position trumps any car I own or have owned, I can fold the seats and stick my bike in the back, do tip runs etc. I can drive it to work or on a shoot or tow the track car, it 'manages' everything with ease. I believe some faux 4x4 owners do just buy them for the 'look at me' factor, or because they believe they're safe. But not all of us do.
Having owned numerous estates, E63, RS4, 535d.. They're fine. The Range Rover is just better for my needs.
It hasn't fallen over once either. Amazing that.
Completely agree with all of this. We love ours - the only negative things I have to say is it's a bit thirsty, which I forgive it for as it's so damn capable of everything I throw at it, and getting into queues is something of a chore.It's big enough for my two labs, pushchair and all the other baby gear in the boot. The car seat fits in the back and still leaves space for two adults, it's high enough, so when I put the little ones chair in and out of the iso fix holder, I don't bugger my back leaning down, it's full of leather and toys and things that make my life that little bit better.
The driving position trumps any car I own or have owned, I can fold the seats and stick my bike in the back, do tip runs etc. I can drive it to work or on a shoot or tow the track car, it 'manages' everything with ease. I believe some faux 4x4 owners do just buy them for the 'look at me' factor, or because they believe they're safe. But not all of us do.
Having owned numerous estates, E63, RS4, 535d.. They're fine. The Range Rover is just better for my needs.
It hasn't fallen over once either. Amazing that.
Most people that buy SUVs do so because the SUV they buy is NOT a focused vehicle. Its a vehicle that can do everything meaning they can live with one car for all their needs whatever they may be.
I used to have a very focused SUV...
It was very good at towing and also good at carrying a load - 1.5tons in the back was no problem and the load bay was about eight feet long.
Cornered well too.....
Transmission was well up to the job. And down hill you never needed the brakes if you used the gearing.
It was so good at towing the British army used them to tow Rapier missile systems and field guns into battle zones, complete with additional missiles and shells. Don't ever recall it falling over either....
Wasn't much good on motorway trips and the school run was problematic too. Didn't have to worry about parking in Sainsbury car parks mind!
It was just a bit too focused for daily use. Still, it scratched the V8 mid engined convertible itch!
I used to have a very focused SUV...
It was very good at towing and also good at carrying a load - 1.5tons in the back was no problem and the load bay was about eight feet long.
Cornered well too.....
Transmission was well up to the job. And down hill you never needed the brakes if you used the gearing.
It was so good at towing the British army used them to tow Rapier missile systems and field guns into battle zones, complete with additional missiles and shells. Don't ever recall it falling over either....
Wasn't much good on motorway trips and the school run was problematic too. Didn't have to worry about parking in Sainsbury car parks mind!
It was just a bit too focused for daily use. Still, it scratched the V8 mid engined convertible itch!
Willy Nilly said:
Following the logic of SUV owning new country dwellers, I now live near the sea and an international airport, should I buy an aeroplane and a boat? Or a flying boat?
Woah stop right there! If I had the money I would definitely "need" a flying boat. I think your man logic is failing you! PS if I had the money I would have a tractor, because I "need" it you know, errr for gardening or something. A digger would be cool too........
interloper said:
Woah stop right there! If I had the money I would definitely "need" a flying boat. I think your man logic is failing you!
PS if I had the money I would have a tractor, because I "need" it you know, errr for gardening or something. A digger would be cool too........
Let's face it, if money/space was no object you'd definitely have a tractor and a JCB. And bang on you'd have a flying boat. You'd also have a transit because they're a hoot. Who hasn't had a laugh when they've rented a transit. Jetski? Quad bike? Scrambler? I think so. Dakar style truck, a Caterham, chainsaw and any number of impractical, singularly focused and somewhat useless things with engines. PS if I had the money I would have a tractor, because I "need" it you know, errr for gardening or something. A digger would be cool too........
There are hundreds of awesome toys you'd have if money and space were no object and at the end of the day you would almost certainly have a big fat Rangie just for your normal, more relaxing and conventional driving needs.
But I can think of one type of car that absolutely no one would ever chose under any 'free' circumstances.
Willy Nilly said:
Lots of inane rubbish.
Do you actually read what you write? Do you sit there and say to yourself "Yep, nailed it that time"?So all manufacturers selling cars that are capable of towing 3.5 tonnes are selling dangerous cars? Really?
And everybody who needs to tow that amount of weight should be buying a tractor unit? A tractor unit unfit for purpose 95% of the time and which then falls into different licencing categories?
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