6 People Hit by 458 Scud This Morning in Battersea
Discussion
V8RX7 said:
^^^I think this is worthy of it's own thread.
I am used to old cars without any driver aids and the only time I had a play in the snow with a car with aids a bit of fun nearly got out of hand as the programmers clearly didn't expect the driver to react to a slide.
What I expected to be a brief slide (based on a 20+ years experience) became a 50m experience of WTF !!!
Depending upon your position it's / my inputs were unhelpful - with it's sensors, it at least knew what I was doing, I had no idea what it was doing !
I had a similar experience at the Porsche driving experience at Silverstone - with the TC on there was no way I could control the car on the skid pan. Switch it all off and you could do a semi graceful powerslide. Of course you are expecting to slide there so I assume if you arent expecting it the electronics help.I am used to old cars without any driver aids and the only time I had a play in the snow with a car with aids a bit of fun nearly got out of hand as the programmers clearly didn't expect the driver to react to a slide.
What I expected to be a brief slide (based on a 20+ years experience) became a 50m experience of WTF !!!
Depending upon your position it's / my inputs were unhelpful - with it's sensors, it at least knew what I was doing, I had no idea what it was doing !
dme123 said:
Absolutely colossal difference in behaviour between early 90s ESP systems like the one in your Supra and modern state of the art systems like you'd find in a 458 (or a Mondeo). Traction control / stability control systems don't just kill power and leave you to await your death when you try and pull too briskly out of a wet junction any more, thank god.
You can still overcome them of course, but you really do have to be driving like a complete bell end.
Obviously there is a difference between a modern ESP and my Supra’s VSC; the reason I referenced my Supra was in reply to the news story of someone unfortunately killing their girlfriend in one.You can still overcome them of course, but you really do have to be driving like a complete bell end.
I agree that the system in my Supra will be fairly primitive, but I’ve also experienced similar in modern cars: BMW F10 M5, Jaguar XJR and even a BMW 116D! These systems are not infallible, especially when combined with heavy, powerful cars with wide tyres in damp or wet conditions. Once a car like that is sliding the systems are going to have a very hard time of recovering the car without some driver input.
Relating this back to the original post: unfortunately I haven’t driven a Ferrari 458 Speciale, but reading the posts on here it seems you could easily get one very out of shape with all the systems turned on.
jamieduff1981 said:
My personal motive for discussing electronics was as stated a wee bit earlier - that is to say "do not assume that electronics will save you", and depending on the particular car and its particular electronics, you don't need to be driving too aggressively to cross its limits in cold/damp conditions.
My Cerbera has never shocked me like the Jag did, because I'm always very conscious of the fact that the Cerbera offers no assistance at all. I believed (like many here still seem to) until that point that the Jag's electronics would prevent a dramatic rear-end breakaway accelerating fairly modestly in a straight line, and they didn't. Now I drive the Jag like the Cerbera and drive on the basis that the electronics don't help. I just forget they're there. I don't turn them off because I reckon the would prevent a full spin and being switched on doesn't hurt anything, but I have learned not to rely on them.
My concern is that some here still expect their electronics to catch their mistakes. Big engines and fat tyres don't like cold weather. Drivers need to remember that and remember that electronics can't make friction when big fat tyres have let go on cold damp roads.
My Cerbera has never shocked me like the Jag did, because I'm always very conscious of the fact that the Cerbera offers no assistance at all. I believed (like many here still seem to) until that point that the Jag's electronics would prevent a dramatic rear-end breakaway accelerating fairly modestly in a straight line, and they didn't. Now I drive the Jag like the Cerbera and drive on the basis that the electronics don't help. I just forget they're there. I don't turn them off because I reckon the would prevent a full spin and being switched on doesn't hurt anything, but I have learned not to rely on them.
My concern is that some here still expect their electronics to catch their mistakes. Big engines and fat tyres don't like cold weather. Drivers need to remember that and remember that electronics can't make friction when big fat tyres have let go on cold damp roads.
stewjohnst said:
"Please note that although our engineers are highly skilled, they are not able to alter the laws of physics and therefore you should not rely wholly on the electronic stability programmes as a substitute for...”
These two posts sum it up well. These systems are not perfect, and as such I don’t drive expecting them to catch me when I run out of talent.Bradley1500 said:
These systems are not infallible, especially when combined with heavy, powerful cars with wide tyres in damp or wet conditions. Once a car like that is sliding the systems are going to have a very hard time of recovering the car without some driver input.
Depends on the particular implementation. swerni said:
AH33 said:
"35 year old man, skill level: low, crashes on almost straight road while trying to impress teenagers with his nice red car"
Gets my vote Equally stupid guess said:
Nice red car swerves onto footpath, avoiding cyclist suddenly crossing road from rear of Sherman tank coming the other way
Guessing game. What's the value in that?mikearwas said:
Yes, its easy to get into trouble if you react before the system does which then kicks in and adds additional correction to what you're already doing. This can result in the car snapping back the other way if you're not careful.
I must admit to having little expeience of "driver aids" as I've always tried to avoid them, even to the extent of fighting with Porsche as they were a factory option which they made part of the UK spec, got my car without them eventually.In my 43 years of driving i've spun a car once, on purpose, in a car park, just to see what happened, but I have been very sideways on numerous occasions without undue drama.
As I've said before, if people let these devices decide the limits they are in for a nasty shock when the system doesn't know what to do, there are millions of variables in car and it's environment and a limited number of lines of code in a program.
The ultimate responsibility lies with the nut on the steering wheel. I prefer to take that responsiblity myself, not delegate it to some silicon chips.
My daily driver is an Integrale so I don't need much more help :-)
tgrumpy grandad said:
I must admit to having little expeience of "driver aids" as I've always tried to avoid them, even to the extent of fighting with Porsche as they were a factory option which they made part of the UK spec, got my car without them eventually.
In my 43 years of driving i've spun a car once, on purpose, in a car park, just to see what happened, but I have been very sideways on numerous occasions without undue drama.
As I've said before, if people let these devices decide the limits they are in for a nasty shock when the system doesn't know what to do, there are millions of variables in car and it's environment and a limited number of lines of code in a program.
The ultimate responsibility lies with the nut on the steering wheel. I prefer to take that responsiblity myself, not delegate it to some silicon chips.
My daily driver is an Integrale so I don't need much more help :-)
I like how all your posts are basically boasting about you and your cars.In my 43 years of driving i've spun a car once, on purpose, in a car park, just to see what happened, but I have been very sideways on numerous occasions without undue drama.
As I've said before, if people let these devices decide the limits they are in for a nasty shock when the system doesn't know what to do, there are millions of variables in car and it's environment and a limited number of lines of code in a program.
The ultimate responsibility lies with the nut on the steering wheel. I prefer to take that responsiblity myself, not delegate it to some silicon chips.
My daily driver is an Integrale so I don't need much more help :-)
Bradley1500 said:
Once a car like that is sliding the systems are going to have a very hard time of recovering the car without some driver input.
Relating this back to the original post: unfortunately I haven’t driven a Ferrari 458 Speciale, but reading the posts on here it seems you could easily get one very out of shape with all the systems turned on.
Borroxs said:
AMG Merc said:
Any news on the casualties?
All the injured people were discharged from hospital on the day, or the day after, so I cant see that there could have been any lasting/severe injuries.AMG Merc said:
Borroxs said:
AMG Merc said:
Any news on the casualties?
All the injured people were discharged from hospital on the day, or the day after, so I cant see that there could have been any lasting/severe injuries.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff