RE: PH Heroes: Honda NSX
Discussion
NoelWatson said:
Harry Monk said:
This was 2004 and the NSX felt as if its sell-by date had passed.
It seems to have slipped badly since 2002 when Autocar placed it 5th in their handling day, ahead of the 996. Why is the NSX any different to an S1 Elise in terms of roll oversteer?
Apologies for the rubbish photo.
Harry Monk said:
Can't really speak for an S1 Elise, but in terms of roll oversteer, the NSX suffered a fundamental body control issue. Evo acknowledge it in their drive against an Evora and it was very evident when the car was driven anywhere near the limit.
Apologies for the rubbish photo.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=839195&mid=0&i=40Apologies for the rubbish photo.
I recall having the same discussion back when you were Idiot Gimp Boy. I think the handling may be slightly different from an early NSX to later - certainly EVO said it was OK in 2002
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2580...
you mentioned then that the Espirit had excellent body control
http://www.lotusespritworld.com/ERoadtests/Perform...
"Stretching the legs of the Lotus for the first time, you're certain you're working a lot harder than the driver of the NSX behind"
"and the nose weaves nervously under braking for bumpy corners."
"Behind, the NSX calmly reels in the Esprit, parrying the bumps so they hardly seem to exist as its driver casually wrist-flicks dow a couple of gears and sights up the apex"
"In the same situation, for all its foibles, the 911 feels remarkably composed and positive. Sure, at times there are some strange, tail weight-induced squirms over cambers the NSX barely acknowledges,"
By they way, I agree that the steering isn't the best.
If I spent long enough on Google I'm sure I could find someone swearing the Pope was a woman.
Spending the best part of a week with the car at a private test track, in the company of arguably the world's most talented chassis engineer, with an array of tyres to choose from, being given the opportunity to drive competitor cars back to back with verifiably repeatable results, all the while logging data with a VBOX clearly isn't good enough to form an opinion.
Pistonheads: hearsay matters?
Spending the best part of a week with the car at a private test track, in the company of arguably the world's most talented chassis engineer, with an array of tyres to choose from, being given the opportunity to drive competitor cars back to back with verifiably repeatable results, all the while logging data with a VBOX clearly isn't good enough to form an opinion.
Pistonheads: hearsay matters?
Harry Monk said:
If I spent long enough on Google I'm sure I could find someone swearing the Pope was a woman.
Spending the best part of a week with the car at a private test track, in the company of arguably the world's most talented chassis engineer, with an array of tyres to choose from, being given the opportunity to drive competitor cars back to back with verifiably repeatable results, all the while logging data with a VBOX clearly isn't good enough to form an opinion.
Pistonheads: hearsay matters?
I wasn't selective in my evidence, I picked the most recent two articles I could find online, and I happen to have the Autocar 2002 handling test at home. I agree that the NSX has flaws, but your suggestion that it was past its best against 996 etc didn't tie in with magazine tests at the time. Spending the best part of a week with the car at a private test track, in the company of arguably the world's most talented chassis engineer, with an array of tyres to choose from, being given the opportunity to drive competitor cars back to back with verifiably repeatable results, all the while logging data with a VBOX clearly isn't good enough to form an opinion.
Pistonheads: hearsay matters?
We still haven't got to the bottom of the Elise roll oversteer.
Harry Monk said:
...at a private test track...
Does this phrase maybe explain it - the NSX wasn't designed as a track weapon, but as practical/usable supercar. Comparing it to an Exige and an Evo on track and then applying those results to all circumstances is perhaps stretching credibility slightly...(I for one would rather a more composed/capable car on-road which sacrifices on-track ability than an out-and-out track weapon which either loses composure on less-than-perfect roads or is too stiff and hence uncomfortable on those roads.)
I'd agree that the NSX's on & over limit handling traits are questionable on a racetrack, its definately not a machine to go drifting in. In that sense my old Z4Coupe was better on track, the significantly firmer suspension aiding body control & the weight distribution making it much more approachable. I only tracked my NSX @ Bedford (dry, tricky), Snetterton (dry, much more fun due to the faster, more flowing nature of the track) & Goodwood (wet, brilliant fun as the supple suspension suited the wet surface and lower grip induced less roll oversteer).
But to assess the car as a track tool misses the point of it imho - on a typically bumpy twisting B-road its fantastic, the supple suspension allowing me to stay on line, and the on road balance feels lovely. Steering not the best but pretty good , and I love how it resists understeer during turn in.
But to assess the car as a track tool misses the point of it imho - on a typically bumpy twisting B-road its fantastic, the supple suspension allowing me to stay on line, and the on road balance feels lovely. Steering not the best but pretty good , and I love how it resists understeer during turn in.
trackdemon said:
I'd agree that the NSX's on & over limit handling traits are questionable on a racetrack, its definately not a machine to go drifting in. In that sense my old Z4Coupe was better on track, the significantly firmer suspension aiding body control & the weight distribution making it much more approachable. I only tracked my NSX @ Bedford (dry, tricky), Snetterton (dry, much more fun due to the faster, more flowing nature of the track) & Goodwood (wet, brilliant fun as the supple suspension suited the wet surface and lower grip induced less roll oversteer).
But to assess the car as a track tool misses the point of it imho - on a typically bumpy twisting B-road its fantastic, the supple suspension allowing me to stay on line, and the on road balance feels lovely. Steering not the best but pretty good , and I love how it resists understeer during turn in.
I hope to reduce the roll at the rear a little with a stiffer rear bar.But to assess the car as a track tool misses the point of it imho - on a typically bumpy twisting B-road its fantastic, the supple suspension allowing me to stay on line, and the on road balance feels lovely. Steering not the best but pretty good , and I love how it resists understeer during turn in.
In my experience the NSX DOES NOT NEED a stiffer rear bar.
What the standard (OEM) NSX needs is a lot STIFFER FRONT sway bar and a very loose end.
That, plus a firmer suspension and a good set of tires.
Which is, BTW, more or less, what the NSX-R has.
(I'm using 235 front and 265 rear tires with a TEIN-RA suspension and NSX-R front sway bar and chassis bars and the car is dodgedly neutral on the track).
To get back to the point, the standard NSX was just as much build for a comfortable drive long distance runner as it was to go fast on a track.
The Lotus Elise is a much more track oriented car. I think nobody will call the Lotus a comfortable drive over a 500 mile stretch. Plus the fact the Lotus is a much smaller car, weighing almost half as much as the other cars in the test.
Bottom line is that making a car more comfortable ALWAYS has a negative impact on the way it will behave on the track. There is nothing wrong with the way the NSX handles, but you will have to remind yourself what it was set up do to in the first place.
What the standard (OEM) NSX needs is a lot STIFFER FRONT sway bar and a very loose end.
That, plus a firmer suspension and a good set of tires.
Which is, BTW, more or less, what the NSX-R has.
(I'm using 235 front and 265 rear tires with a TEIN-RA suspension and NSX-R front sway bar and chassis bars and the car is dodgedly neutral on the track).
To get back to the point, the standard NSX was just as much build for a comfortable drive long distance runner as it was to go fast on a track.
The Lotus Elise is a much more track oriented car. I think nobody will call the Lotus a comfortable drive over a 500 mile stretch. Plus the fact the Lotus is a much smaller car, weighing almost half as much as the other cars in the test.
Bottom line is that making a car more comfortable ALWAYS has a negative impact on the way it will behave on the track. There is nothing wrong with the way the NSX handles, but you will have to remind yourself what it was set up do to in the first place.
mvm said:
In my experience the NSX DOES NOT NEED a stiffer rear bar.
What the standard (OEM) NSX needs is a lot STIFFER FRONT sway bar and a very loose end.
That, plus a firmer suspension and a good set of tires.
Which is, BTW, more or less, what the NSX-R has.
(I'm using 235 front and 265 rear tires with a TEIN-RA suspension and NSX-R front sway bar and chassis bars and the car is dodgedly neutral on the track).
To get back to the point, the standard NSX was just as much build for a comfortable drive long distance runner as it was to go fast on a track.
The Lotus Elise is a much more track oriented car. I think nobody will call the Lotus a comfortable drive over a 500 mile stretch. Plus the fact the Lotus is a much smaller car, weighing almost half as much as the other cars in the test.
Bottom line is that making a car more comfortable ALWAYS has a negative impact on the way it will behave on the track. There is nothing wrong with the way the NSX handles, but you will have to remind yourself what it was set up do to in the first place.
Yes the NSX-R was notoriously stiff on the road, most say the type-s is a good compromise. The excessive rear roll is very noticeable on my early car.(the S had uprated springs all round and an uprated rear bar, the front was left the same)What the standard (OEM) NSX needs is a lot STIFFER FRONT sway bar and a very loose end.
That, plus a firmer suspension and a good set of tires.
Which is, BTW, more or less, what the NSX-R has.
(I'm using 235 front and 265 rear tires with a TEIN-RA suspension and NSX-R front sway bar and chassis bars and the car is dodgedly neutral on the track).
To get back to the point, the standard NSX was just as much build for a comfortable drive long distance runner as it was to go fast on a track.
The Lotus Elise is a much more track oriented car. I think nobody will call the Lotus a comfortable drive over a 500 mile stretch. Plus the fact the Lotus is a much smaller car, weighing almost half as much as the other cars in the test.
Bottom line is that making a car more comfortable ALWAYS has a negative impact on the way it will behave on the track. There is nothing wrong with the way the NSX handles, but you will have to remind yourself what it was set up do to in the first place.
stephen300o said:
Yes the NSX-R was notoriously stiff on the road, most say the type-s is a good compromise. The excessive rear roll is very noticeable on my early car.(the S had uprated springs all round and an uprated rear bar, the front was left the same)
A friend of mine has the Type-S suspension on the car and is pretty happy with it. It's feels a bit like my TEIN suspension, but is of course not adjustable. The TEIN is, I can (manually that is) adjust the damper settings as well as the height of the car). I don't find my suspension uncomfortable at all, but it does make you feel very short bumps on the road very well.A lot of NSX drivers in the US who track their track only put a stiff bar in the front but leave the rears as they are. And I agree with them. If you stiffen up the rear (too much), it's harder to catch when it goes.
I do have the ScienceofSpeed non-compliance toe links though, and they improve the handling also in my opinion.
Briefly on Elise vs NSX - I tracked both cars, and yes the Elise was the better track car, mainly by virtue of more talkative steering. I didn't drive the NSX much on track, but when I did it made its few failures a lot more noticeable, those being slightly dead steering and soft suspension. But on the road it was the far better car, if only modern cars could ride bumps like the NSX.
Finally, on Mr Becker - wasn't this the chap that made the S2 Elise understeer like a pig? My abiding memory of my S2 Elise was either horrific understeer or dramatic snap oversteer.
Finally, on Mr Becker - wasn't this the chap that made the S2 Elise understeer like a pig? My abiding memory of my S2 Elise was either horrific understeer or dramatic snap oversteer.
scampbird said:
Finally, on Mr Becker - wasn't this the chap that made the S2 Elise understeer like a pig? My abiding memory of my S2 Elise was either horrific understeer or dramatic snap oversteer.
Dialling in understeer was a 'fix' to prevent snap oversteer. Not sure where you're going with that one.
NoelWatson said:
Sounds like it has a fundamental body control issue
I think the point is that each of these cars can be adjusted to handle just how you like it.
The NSX suspension is very adjustable, and I'm sure you can to the same with the Elise.
As a side note, came across this (old) movie with two NSX's drifting around a track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnsxdo1dMXw
Harry Monk said:
scampbird said:
Finally, on Mr Becker - wasn't this the chap that made the S2 Elise understeer like a pig? My abiding memory of my S2 Elise was either horrific understeer or dramatic snap oversteer.
Dialling in understeer was a 'fix' to prevent snap oversteer. Not sure where you're going with that one.Hmmm...
To be fair, the Elise has always had weight distribution against it - the twin-cam in-line 4's sit quite tall in the back (even more so the VVTi Toyota engines). That said, Lotus had a very one-dimensional brief with the Elise - handling above everything else. So it SHOULD be a yardstick for others to be measured against...
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