RE: Chris Harris video: McLaren P1
Discussion
Tom73 said:
Engerland, Engerland, Engerland... Engerland, Engerland, Engerlaaa-and... A new thing, a new thing, a new thing... A new thing, A-NEW-THING!! Game changer, game changer, game changer...
And they say that irony is lost on Johnny foreigner. 
That is brass necked criticism from someone who is either Swedish or spent a long period of time in Sweden at the Swedish Tech Institute and has a pathological affection for the very Swedish koenigsegg.
Oh and hoots mon 'furs ma' haggis, I certainly am not a little Englander.
Dagnut said:
I think game changer is a bit over the top, it seems like a brilliant car, but it's not showcasing any exclusive technology, it's not shattering any performance records....what exactly has this changed?
It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
Good point, the Veyron SuperSport has all of the the P1's performance figures beaten, and that car has been around a long time. It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
Lamborghini Sesto Elemento is a what I'd call a game changer, insanely light and thoroughly advanced in that it uses forged carbon suspension components etc.
Tom73 said:
It does tend to get a little silly, doesn't it? It's like the whole of England simultaneously restored the empire to it's former glory and is striking down on all those pesky foreigners. I literally couldn't stop cringing when I saw the thread "Ferrari: aspirational or cringeworthy?" because it's such a ridiculously contrarian stance to take, not to mention highly unfair, and I still struggle to wrap my head around the unintended irony. It's as if someone blew the horn and the fox hunt was ON. 
Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what the competiton has to offer. LaFerrari looks a bit left behind in terms of cold specs but so did the 458 compared to the 12C but was simply the more fun car to drive. Snicker all you like but the TheFerrari has a V12 that runs at 9250 rpm and weighs 150 kg less than the P1.
Porsche's approach is interesting but could very well prove to be the better road car and how can it not be an absolute joy with 4wd and 9150 rpm?
The Huayra is still the most classical, camp, mad, wonderfully designed machine out there and it has a V12.
And then there's my own favored brand Koenigsegg which matches the P1's specs point for point and adds some with their "new thing", the One:1. 600 kg of downforce, active chassis and aero, 1340 hp and a 100 kgs lighter than the P1. And it's the brainchild of Lex Luthor. The fun factor is obvious.
And all of these cars bar the Hauyra have a F1 derived electrohydraulic diff and ABS, which no matter how you argue against it, inavriably will have more parameters to adjust than just a meager ABS will. Before ABS was banned in the 90's, back when McLaren could use their brake steer, the combination between diffs and ABS worked very similarly to how it does in these hypercars so if McLaren wanted to draw from past or present F1 experiences they'd gone with the electrohydraulic diff/ABS combination...
Comparisons are pointless but if you insist on painting a picture of the P1 being somehow superior there's plenty of things to nitpick at. It does not have LaFerrari's weight or deliciosly high revving V12. It does not have the 918's 4wd and 9150 rpm. It does not have the One:1's 1340 hp or weight. It does not have the glitter and glamour and the AMG V12 of the Huayra. It's simply a very, very good car that matches up nicely with the others in some areas and in other areas not so much, so the british press could do us all a favor and spare us the hyperbole and favoritism. It got old real fast with the 12C and it's not getting any fresher now.
But I digress. Where were we? Oh yes.
Engerland, Engerland, Engerland... Engerland, Engerland, Engerlaaa-and... A new thing, a new thing, a new thing... A new thing, A-NEW-THING!! Game changer, game changer, game changer...
And there was me thinging Tom was going to get the entire way through a post and manage not to mention the 'egg word. It was close Tom, close, maybe on your next post eh??Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what the competiton has to offer. LaFerrari looks a bit left behind in terms of cold specs but so did the 458 compared to the 12C but was simply the more fun car to drive. Snicker all you like but the TheFerrari has a V12 that runs at 9250 rpm and weighs 150 kg less than the P1.
Porsche's approach is interesting but could very well prove to be the better road car and how can it not be an absolute joy with 4wd and 9150 rpm?
The Huayra is still the most classical, camp, mad, wonderfully designed machine out there and it has a V12.
And then there's my own favored brand Koenigsegg which matches the P1's specs point for point and adds some with their "new thing", the One:1. 600 kg of downforce, active chassis and aero, 1340 hp and a 100 kgs lighter than the P1. And it's the brainchild of Lex Luthor. The fun factor is obvious.
And all of these cars bar the Hauyra have a F1 derived electrohydraulic diff and ABS, which no matter how you argue against it, inavriably will have more parameters to adjust than just a meager ABS will. Before ABS was banned in the 90's, back when McLaren could use their brake steer, the combination between diffs and ABS worked very similarly to how it does in these hypercars so if McLaren wanted to draw from past or present F1 experiences they'd gone with the electrohydraulic diff/ABS combination...
Comparisons are pointless but if you insist on painting a picture of the P1 being somehow superior there's plenty of things to nitpick at. It does not have LaFerrari's weight or deliciosly high revving V12. It does not have the 918's 4wd and 9150 rpm. It does not have the One:1's 1340 hp or weight. It does not have the glitter and glamour and the AMG V12 of the Huayra. It's simply a very, very good car that matches up nicely with the others in some areas and in other areas not so much, so the british press could do us all a favor and spare us the hyperbole and favoritism. It got old real fast with the 12C and it's not getting any fresher now.
But I digress. Where were we? Oh yes.
Engerland, Engerland, Engerland... Engerland, Engerland, Engerlaaa-and... A new thing, a new thing, a new thing... A new thing, A-NEW-THING!! Game changer, game changer, game changer...
;-)
Tom73 said:
Dagnut said:
007 VXR said:
Dagnut said:
I think game changer is a bit over the top, it seems like a brilliant car, but it's not showcasing any exclusive technology, it's not shattering any performance records....what exactly has this changed?
It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
Thats not what most are saying/thinking...It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
We are in a unique era where all these million pound cars are simply sold on spec..agera r, huayra, 918, La Ferrari, P1..they all sold so they don't really seem to be in competition with each other apart from bragging rights..P1 is probably the best of them but does that "change the game"? is the P1 so good the competition are scratching their heads and going back to the drawing board?...doubt it
Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what the competiton has to offer. LaFerrari looks a bit left behind in terms of cold specs but so did the 458 compared to the 12C but was simply the more fun car to drive. Snicker all you like but the TheFerrari has a V12 that runs at 9250 rpm and weighs 150 kg less than the P1.
Porsche's approach is interesting but could very well prove to be the better road car and how can it not be an absolute joy with 4wd and 9150 rpm?
The Huayra is still the most classical, camp, mad, wonderfully designed machine out there and it has a V12.
And then there's my own favored brand Koenigsegg which matches the P1's specs point for point and adds some with their "new thing", the One:1. 600 kg of downforce, active chassis and aero, 1340 hp and a 100 kgs lighter than the P1. And it's the brainchild of Lex Luthor. The fun factor is obvious.
And all of these cars bar the Hauyra have a F1 derived electrohydraulic diff and ABS, which no matter how you argue against it, inavriably will have more parameters to adjust than just a meager ABS will. Before ABS was banned in the 90's, back when McLaren could use their brake steer, the combination between diffs and ABS worked very similarly to how it does in these hypercars so if McLaren wanted to draw from past or present F1 experiences they'd gone with the electrohydraulic diff/ABS combination...
Comparisons are pointless but if you insist on painting a picture of the P1 being somehow superior there's plenty of things to nitpick at. It does not have LaFerrari's weight or deliciosly high revving V12. It does not have the 918's 4wd and 9150 rpm. It does not have the One:1's 1340 hp or weight. It does not have the glitter and glamour and the AMG V12 of the Huayra. It's simply a very, very good car that matches up nicely with the others in some areas and in other areas not so much, so the british press could do us all a favor and spare us the hyperbole and favoritism. It got old real fast with the 12C and it's not getting any fresher now.
But I digress. Where were we? Oh yes.
Engerland, Engerland, Engerland... Engerland, Engerland, Engerlaaa-and... A new thing, a new thing, a new thing... A new thing, A-NEW-THING!! Game changer, game changer, game changer...
Hey I am sure there are a some lucky people who have those cars on order to be delivered for this Summer.
But yes, this does seem like a commentary of the England Football team heading to a World Cup. I am glad Chris has driven it and made a decent video to illustrate it.
Engerland, Engerland, Engerland... Engerland, Engerland, Engerlaaa-and... A new thing, a new thing, a new thing... A new thing, A-NEW-THING!! Game changer, game changer, game changer...
007 VXR said:
E65Ross said:
hairykrishna said:
007 VXR said:
E65Ross said:
They will be if the 6:33 ring time is indeed true (you know, the time shown at a meeting at McLaren with buyers)
Very true, this still has a ring of truth about IMHO...If it had said 7.00 then could understand.
courtesy Jalopinik @ http://jalopnik.com/did-the-mclaren-p1-get-beaten-...
Mood board would be about right. That's pic is not the sort of timer you'd use if timing a ring lap. It would be via GPS and a laptop display. Or via the on screen timer on a HD camera.
Rich_W said:
I shagged Rihanna and Katy Perry last night. Proof?
Bet it felt good to write that. 
Rich_W said:
Good idea to speak on behalf of someone else. 
Do you want your questions answered, or not?Rich_W said:
Only KERS as a system can develop more power than it delivers. It's the RULES that limit the use per lap. Not the system. I would have thought you knew that...
Quite aware, thanks. Rich_W said:
You go to Pirelli and say "Hi we want a tyre that can handle 260mph, 600kg of downforce is good grip on track and compliant enough (and that will be "relatively" compliant) on road to be useable and not drone like crazy. And weighs as little as possible And we don't care if they cost £10K each. (since the car is a Halo product at £800K) I'm guessing they will come up with something a damn more bespoke than the ones fitted. Tyre manufacturers are constantly evolving their products. They love it
...and I'd say you are clueless about tire development because when you mandate the design the tire to perform at the limit of capabilities in one specified scenario, especially some extreme top speed figure, it is going to introduce compromises in other areas of the tire's design where you also have wanted the tire to perform at the limit of modern tire capabilities. McLaren chose to be sensible about the top speed of the P1 so that their bespoke Pirellis would offer ultimate performance in areas that actually matter. And a set of Veyron tires are said to be about $38K USD and last 2,500 miles which is ridiculous and unsustainable if someone actually planned to use the car. McLaren owners actually do use their cars.Rich_W said:
Sorry? Did you actually type that? It's a hypercar. It's ALL pointless but we true car fans love a good top speed.
Of course I did - unlike you apparently, I really don't care about the top speed race. It's foolish and pointless to make specific compromises in the development of a car just so that it can be capable of registering a big number on the board. The Veyron's engineering target of exceeding 250 MPH or more causes it to tip the scales at more than 2 tons - and developing the car to be capable of that speed when most of them will almost never be driven anywhere near that limit was simply an ego exercise. Designing the Concorde (since you mentioned it) to travel at 1,350 MPH actually had a point because that was what it did all the time.>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Sunday 23 February 02:13
E65Ross said:
ajjers said:
Peloton25
Presumably you disapproved when Mclaren went all out for top speed with the F1?
Pretty sure I read in EVO once upon a time that the XJ220 was faster round a track than the F1.
McLaren stated quite clearly that top speed wasn't their priority with the F1. In fact, Gordon Murray only asked for 550bhp, but bmw gave him more (in a slightly heavier than requested package but better bhp/kg than requested) Presumably you disapproved when Mclaren went all out for top speed with the F1?
Pretty sure I read in EVO once upon a time that the XJ220 was faster round a track than the F1.
Going back to Gordon Murray's original concept foundation notes which he laid out to the team in 1989, under the topic of 'Performance' the goal in reference to top speed was stated simply as '200 MPH Plus' - which at the time would have put it in good company with cars like the F40, 959 and Diablo which were just hitting those numbers as well. There's never a mention of being the fastest car in the world and if you speak to Gordon Murray he will tell you that as well.
As for your second question - I've never seen that mentioned anywhere, certainly not seen the two cars compared in such a setting. With the Jaguar's 3,025 lb curb weight versus the F1s at roughly 500 lbs lighter, and with the XJ220 arriving to battle with an 85 HP deficit I would find that claim unlikely to be true.
>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Sunday 23 February 02:14
"Mood Board" time of 6:33.26 was set in the simulator at McLaren. McLaren were pioneers with this in Formula One and their system is said to be astonishingly accurate. The actual lap time set at the Ring does not match that exactly, but is not far off.
Incidentally, the Jalopnik article was incorrect on one important point. When the image of that 'Mood Board' was captured, it was not being shown to any potential customers but rather this group of journalists from around the world who were gathered at the McLaren Technology Centre. It was shared, along with the rest of the slides in McLaren's presentation, on the AUTOHOME.COM.CN website by a Chinese participant.
>8^)
ER
Incidentally, the Jalopnik article was incorrect on one important point. When the image of that 'Mood Board' was captured, it was not being shown to any potential customers but rather this group of journalists from around the world who were gathered at the McLaren Technology Centre. It was shared, along with the rest of the slides in McLaren's presentation, on the AUTOHOME.COM.CN website by a Chinese participant.
>8^)
ER
Peloton25 said:
"Mood Board" time of 6:33.26 was set in the simulator at McLaren. McLaren were pioneers with this in Formula One and their system is said to be astonishingly accurate. The actual lap time set at the Ring does not match that exactly, but is not far off.
>8^)
ER
Hm.... Per above in bold, I am not 100% sure that their F1 drivers last year would agree on the simulator accuracy.... >8^)
ER
SteveO220 said:
It takes time and context to appreciate whether something is indeed a 'game changer', so you may be right. However, the F1 also had very little 'new' about it. Murray 'just' put leading (not bleeding) edge technologies together in a beautiful design package that made the F1 the 'ultimate road car'. Not many would disagree with that. That was the game change.
Have McLaren now created the 'ultimate road-race car?'. Quite possibly. Time will tell. I am in awe of the LF and the 918 as well and would happily put either in my garage. But I think the purity of purpose exhibited in the P1 is what will stand it apart over time.
The F1 did 240mph in 1992 but I still don't think that it was a game changer, it wasn't exactly a success and nobody rushed out to copy the formula...I don't think it does take time and context...it sometimes takes time and context to appreciate how great an achievement something was but if it does take time an context how is it "changing the game"??? People say the same thing about Concorde...where is it now?Have McLaren now created the 'ultimate road-race car?'. Quite possibly. Time will tell. I am in awe of the LF and the 918 as well and would happily put either in my garage. But I think the purity of purpose exhibited in the P1 is what will stand it apart over time.
E65Ross said:
Dagnut said:
007 VXR said:
Dagnut said:
I think game changer is a bit over the top, it seems like a brilliant car, but it's not showcasing any exclusive technology, it's not shattering any performance records....what exactly has this changed?
It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
Thats not what most are saying/thinking...It's a million pound short run supercar at the end of the day,this car has not moved the bar on enough to be called a game changer when there are 2 cars from competitors out there one of which hasn't even been tested.
We are in a unique era where all these million pound cars are simply sold on spec..agera r, huayra, 918, La Ferrari, P1..they all sold so they don't really seem to be in competition with each other apart from bragging rights..P1 is probably the best of them but does that "change the game"? is the P1 so good the competition are scratching their heads and going back to the drawing board?...doubt it
The Ring itself is not irrelevant - it is one of the best places to test a car's performance anywhere in the world. That's why so many automotive manufacturers go there at some stage in the development of their 'sporty' and sometimes not-so-sporty cars.
What is irrelevant are the are all the attempts made for headline-grabbing lap times we see touted by the marketing departments of those same automakers. I say this because none of them are taking a standard production model off the assembly line and using that for their timed lap - every car gets tweaked - but moreso that conditions on the day of testing and also driver skill and familiarity with the track can sway the results. This makes the lap times incomparable, and therefore irrelevant.
>8^)
ER
What is irrelevant are the are all the attempts made for headline-grabbing lap times we see touted by the marketing departments of those same automakers. I say this because none of them are taking a standard production model off the assembly line and using that for their timed lap - every car gets tweaked - but moreso that conditions on the day of testing and also driver skill and familiarity with the track can sway the results. This makes the lap times incomparable, and therefore irrelevant.
>8^)
ER
The Concorde was too expensive. People preferred to pay less and take double the time. Supersonic air travel is still alive http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/19/spike-windowles... though. Or at least I hope there's a market for it. There's certainly research around it.
The P1, the 918 and LaFerrari in a way (or at least to me) feel like technology showcases that happen to be very nice and useable in their own right as cars go.
The P1, the 918 and LaFerrari in a way (or at least to me) feel like technology showcases that happen to be very nice and useable in their own right as cars go.
hdrflow said:
The P1, the 918 and LaFerrari in a way (or at least to me) feel like technology showcases that happen to be very nice and useable in their own right as cars go.
If all 3 are showing casing the same technology at roughly the same time how can the P1 claim to be "changing the game" with it?
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