UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive

[lostkiwi]

yonex said:

You own one I take it?

No I don't. Why? Is it a prerequisite to saying how I would feel if my fuel costs were next to zero and everyone else was paying through the nose?

Can't see the relevance to your question really.

[98elise]

feef said:

NRS said:

98elise said:

EV does not work for everyone, but its not supposed to be. The future will be EV, RX and Hybrid. Full ICE is fundamentally flawed, and will very soon be the low perfromance overly complicated choice of drive train.

The thing is at some point it will be interesting to see how things change. As the amount of petrol cars drop and electric cars increase the need for petrol stations will decrease and so the number of them will go down. This will then make it harder to refill (outside cities in particular) and so will lead to more people using EV cars.

And what happens to "petrol" stations in the future? Since very few people will actually need to use charging points because they almost never drive over the range of the car then will we probably lose a lot of them. Will enough places survive on food stops only for motorway journeys? And will things like broken windscreen wipers will become a bit more of an issue since not so many places can support staying open without petrol to top up the bills? It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think Better Place had the answer to that but they've gone defunct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0WPw3p2MQ

Some years ago I suggested that the oil-companies get behind someone like Better Place and develop a common standard for power cells. If all vehicle manufacturers could adopt a common power cell formfactor then charging on the fly becomes redundant as you swap the power cells out at a 'filling' station.

This has the added benefits in that the cells are not only charged at the station but tested to check their lifetime/usability.

Everyone wins, a 'recharge' in seconds, filling stations retain a business model, battery lifetime worries becomes irrelevant to the vehicle owner, and range is no longer an issue

Tesla seem to be moving in a similar direction, but I'm not aware of any further developments in this field which is a shame
http://inhabitat.com/tesla-launches-battery-swap-p...

There is little point in a single form factor unless you have a standard chassis, otherwise whats right for a smart car will not be right for a 4x4. Also if you want something to potter to the shops an back you may not want a 90kWh 300 mile range battery.

[Thankyou4calling]

Welshbeef said:

It's true however your getting foot flow for papers drinks flowers whatever - if you don't have a petrol station why would a punter choose to go there over the corner shop?

It's not true, it's another myth.

If a normal Shell is selling fuel at 110p per litre, the motorway services will be selling it at at least 120p per litre and buying it in cheaper.

So if the regular station is making 5p per litre the services will be making AT LEAST 15p per litre, 3 times as much.

Add to that all the other sales and it's a cash cow.

[feef]

98elise said:

feef said:

NRS said:

98elise said:

EV does not work for everyone, but its not supposed to be. The future will be EV, RX and Hybrid. Full ICE is fundamentally flawed, and will very soon be the low perfromance overly complicated choice of drive train.

The thing is at some point it will be interesting to see how things change. As the amount of petrol cars drop and electric cars increase the need for petrol stations will decrease and so the number of them will go down. This will then make it harder to refill (outside cities in particular) and so will lead to more people using EV cars.

And what happens to "petrol" stations in the future? Since very few people will actually need to use charging points because they almost never drive over the range of the car then will we probably lose a lot of them. Will enough places survive on food stops only for motorway journeys? And will things like broken windscreen wipers will become a bit more of an issue since not so many places can support staying open without petrol to top up the bills? It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think Better Place had the answer to that but they've gone defunct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0WPw3p2MQ

Some years ago I suggested that the oil-companies get behind someone like Better Place and develop a common standard for power cells. If all vehicle manufacturers could adopt a common power cell formfactor then charging on the fly becomes redundant as you swap the power cells out at a 'filling' station.

This has the added benefits in that the cells are not only charged at the station but tested to check their lifetime/usability.

Everyone wins, a 'recharge' in seconds, filling stations retain a business model, battery lifetime worries becomes irrelevant to the vehicle owner, and range is no longer an issue

Tesla seem to be moving in a similar direction, but I'm not aware of any further developments in this field which is a shame
http://inhabitat.com/tesla-launches-battery-swap-p...

There is little point in a single form factor unless you have a standard chassis, otherwise whats right for a smart car will not be right for a 4x4. Also if you want something to potter to the shops an back you may not want a 90kWh 300 mile range battery.

A form-factor standard doesn't necessarily mean a single form-factor

There could be a few different shapes/sizes

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

Is that misapprehension why some people think it's expensive? I mean, it is expensive, but not particularly so when compared to other large luxury cars.

I think a lot of issues, expectations and dislike stem from the fact that EVs were seized upon by the aggressive and deluded eco mentallists as one of their many battle fronts to force their radical views and changes on society.

The premium EVs that have appeared in the last couple of years such as the Tesla, i3 and 8 and even the latest Hypercars being hybrids seem to be helping undo some of the massive damage done by the cretinous fanatics. You only need to look at the EV threads in PH a couple of years ago to see the change.

300 miles, 2.8s 0-60, massive interior space and silent running. Some of these cars are a genuine new and great driving dynamics that anyone interested in cars would like to experience. Whether they would like to own one or not.

[lostkiwi]

Thankyou4calling said:

It's not true, it's another myth.

If a normal Shell is selling fuel at 110p per litre, the motorway services will be selling it at at least 120p per litre and buying it in cheaper.

So if the regular station is making 5p per litre the services will be making AT LEAST 15p per litre, 3 times as much.

Add to that all the other sales and it's a cash cow.

The pump price is set by the oil companies not the retailer. I have no reason not to believe what my accountant mate was saying as he has first hand experience of the set up.

[Ares]

lostkiwi said:

The pump price is set by the oil companies not the retailer. I have no reason not to believe what my accountant mate was saying as he has first hand experience of the set up.

We all know the knowledge of all on pistonheads far far supersedes any (so called) expert in any field

[DonkeyApple]

Thankyou4calling said:

Welshbeef said:

It's true however your getting foot flow for papers drinks flowers whatever - if you don't have a petrol station why would a punter choose to go there over the corner shop?

It's not true, it's another myth.

If a normal Shell is selling fuel at 110p per litre, the motorway services will be selling it at at least 120p per litre and buying it in cheaper.

So if the regular station is making 5p per litre the services will be making AT LEAST 15p per litre, 3 times as much.

Add to that all the other sales and it's a cash cow.

But that doesn't take into account the fact that the lease cost for commercial square footage on the restricyed and regulated motorway sites is monumental.

Just like a packet of crisps on Bond Street costing more than one in Whitechapel, it's not profit for the vendor but an excess to cover the higher rents.

[ILoveMondeo]

RobM77 said:

AnotherClarkey said:

ILoveMondeo said:

(and does anyone actually get 50MPG average in ANY car, ever? Maybe the most frugal diesel...)

Yes, very easily - 56mpg average over almost 100,000 miles in a Prius.

I've got a pretty normal 320d (an '07 with 131k on the clock), not the ED or anything (i/e/ 'the most frugal diesel' as above) and I average 51-52. My Dad has the ED and is averaging about 60, despite most of his driving being back roads (C and B roads). I use all the revs and am frequently on full throttle, so I don't pussy foot it to get that - if I do drive like my Mum then I get up into the mid 50s quite easily.

Indeed, neither are really in the same class as a model s are they? Prius definitely not, 3 series closer but I'm still of the option it should be compared to relatively high performance 5-series size/spec cars. Otherwise you may as well compare it to a 125cc bike, which can do 100mpg, it'll never be as efficient and therefore is rubbish.

[NRS]

Ares said:

lostkiwi said:

The pump price is set by the oil companies not the retailer. I have no reason not to believe what my accountant mate was saying as he has first hand experience of the set up.

We all know the knowledge of all on pistonheads far far supersedes any (so called) expert in any field

Could that depend if it is a franchise though? Shell will set price if you use their name for example?

feef said:

I think Better Place had the answer to that but they've gone defunct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0WPw3p2MQ

Some years ago I suggested that the oil-companies get behind someone like Better Place and develop a common standard for power cells. If all vehicle manufacturers could adopt a common power cell formfactor then charging on the fly becomes redundant as you swap the power cells out at a 'filling' station.

This has the added benefits in that the cells are not only charged at the station but tested to check their lifetime/usability.

Everyone wins, a 'recharge' in seconds, filling stations retain a business model, battery lifetime worries becomes irrelevant to the vehicle owner, and range is no longer an issue

Tesla seem to be moving in a similar direction, but I'm not aware of any further developments in this field which is a shame
http://inhabitat.com/tesla-launches-battery-swap-p...

That is one option, but many people would not need to use them at all because of the day to day journeys being short and so they can charge at home. It could be an alternative to having charging points everywhere - you swap batteries if you are living in a block of flats with no space to add charging points. But then it would be a big issue with storage - having the space to store enough batteries in cities would be a big issue. So then people have to drive further to get out of town to pick up a replacement battery.

As an aside, it probably wouldn't be a good thing for oil companies to invest in (depending on the size of the company and what type of risk they want to take). Oil companies are mostly oriented around high investment, long term, high reward opportunities. So the main parts of the companies work in very different ways to what you suggest (although obviously some companies have petrol stations and so have that type of business).

[Thankyou4calling]

DonkeyApple said:

But that doesn't take into account the fact that the lease cost for commercial square footage on the restricyed and regulated motorway sites is monumental.

Just like a packet of crisps on Bond Street costing more than one in Whitechapel, it's not profit for the vendor but an excess to cover the higher rents.

I'm not looking at the running costs of the business.

I'm simply saying they will be buying in fuel cheaper and selling it for at least 10p a litre more than a regular station thus they will be making considerably more fan 10p a litre, it's a fact. The figures are there.

[AnotherClarkey]

ILoveMondeo said:

RobM77 said:

AnotherClarkey said:

ILoveMondeo said:

(and does anyone actually get 50MPG average in ANY car, ever? Maybe the most frugal diesel...)

Yes, very easily - 56mpg average over almost 100,000 miles in a Prius.

I've got a pretty normal 320d (an '07 with 131k on the clock), not the ED or anything (i/e/ 'the most frugal diesel' as above) and I average 51-52. My Dad has the ED and is averaging about 60, despite most of his driving being back roads (C and B roads). I use all the revs and am frequently on full throttle, so I don't pussy foot it to get that - if I do drive like my Mum then I get up into the mid 50s quite easily.

Indeed, neither are really in the same class as a model s are they? Prius definitely not, 3 series closer but I'm still of the option it should be compared to relatively high performance 5-series size/spec cars. Otherwise you may as well compare it to a 125cc bike, which can do 100mpg, it'll never be as efficient and therefore is rubbish.

You're the one who asked "does anyone actually get 50 mpg in ANY car, ever?". You got two valid responses, one petrol auto and a manual (I presume) diesel.

I have driven a Tesla P85+ and trust me, a BMW320D is barely any closer to it than a Prius is.

[mybrainhurts]

kambites said:

mybrainhurts said:

Yesterday I said:

Has Tesla revealed how much a new motor will cost when the smoke appears, just out of warranty?

I'm guessing quite a lot less than an equivalently powerful internal combustion engine.

I'm guessing a Tesla electric motor will live quite a lot less than the 400,000 miles I am currently getting out of internal combustion engines.

Anyone able to answer my original question yet?

[AnotherClarkey]

mybrainhurts said:

I'm guessing a Tesla electric motor will live quite a lot less than the 400,000 miles I am currently getting out of internal combustion engines.

Anyone able to answer my original question yet?

Why are you guessing that? Which one is the simpler machine? Which one has an unlimited mileage 8 year warranty?

[kambites]

mybrainhurts said:

I'm guessing a Tesla electric motor will live quite a lot less than the 400,000 miles I am currently getting out of internal combustion engines.

Really? Why's that?

I'd expect an electric motor to out-last an ICE by at least an order of magnitude. I'd be distinctly disappointed if the motor itself isn't good for at least a million miles.

[mybrainhurts]

kambites said:

mybrainhurts said:

I'm guessing a Tesla electric motor will live quite a lot less than the 400,000 miles I am currently getting out of internal combustion engines.

Really? Why's that?

I'd expect an electric motor to out-last an ICE by at least an order of magnitude. I'd be distinctly disappointed if the motor itself isn't good for at least a million miles.

My ICEs have frequently outlasted their alternators, starter motors and heater blowers.

My washing machines have frequently blown their electric motors.

Someone just suggested Tesla motors will be cheap. If so, where does the huge price tag for their cars come from?

[NRS]

mybrainhurts said:

My ICEs have frequently outlasted their alternators, starter motors and heater blowers.

My washing machines have frequently blown their electric motors.

Someone just suggested Tesla motors will be cheap. If so, where does the huge price tag for their cars come from?

How much of the ICE is original?

Battery packs are apparently around $35 000, so take up a lot of the price. However this should go down (generally batteries are decreasing around 8-10% a year) and the batteries will also get much better in terms of energy density etc. So in theory when you swap batteries your 250 mile Tesla now would change into a 1000 mile Tesla in 8 years.

However they also have to make money to pay for the massive investments in starting a new company, paying for the car and battery factors, and future development.

ETA: Seems battery packs are $12 000 in 2013 money, so actually much less than I put earlier. Not sure if that was older pricing - was what came up in Google.

Edited by NRS on Wednesday 14th October 21:58

[DonkeyApple]

Thankyou4calling said:

DonkeyApple said:

But that doesn't take into account the fact that the lease cost for commercial square footage on the restricyed and regulated motorway sites is monumental.

Just like a packet of crisps on Bond Street costing more than one in Whitechapel, it's not profit for the vendor but an excess to cover the higher rents.

I'm not looking at the running costs of the business.

I'm simply saying they will be buying in fuel cheaper and selling it for at least 10p a litre more than a regular station thus they will be making considerably more fan 10p a litre, it's a fact. The figures are there.

Nope. Running costs are higher because rents are higher. So much of that premium is to cover the higher rents. It's not as simple as just thinking its a captive audience premium alone.

[anonymous-user]

lostkiwi said:

No I don't. Why? Is it a prerequisite to saying how I would feel if my fuel costs were next to zero and everyone else was paying through the nose?

Can't see the relevance to your question really.

How can you talk about EV costs with no experience of ownership?

[kambites]

mybrainhurts said:

My ICEs have frequently outlasted their alternators, starter motors and heater blowers.

My washing machines have frequently blown their electric motors.

Someone just suggested Tesla motors will be cheap. If so, where does the huge price tag for their cars come from?

I didn't say it was impossible to build a rubbish electric motor if you try; I said I firmly believe that the Tesla's will be far more reliable than a typical ICE.

Personally, I've never had an alternator, starter motor or heater blower fail. Washing machine motors certainly do fail and if you take one apart you can see why - I'm pretty certain they're designed to fail.

I'm not sure what "high price tag" you're talking about. The Model-S seems to be similarly priced at worst and substantially cheaper at best than its ICE powered competition?


ETA: In fact thinking about it, I've never personally had an electric motor fail in anything I've ever owned and I must have owned thousands of the thing; which is definitely more than I can say about internal combustion engines and I've only owned a few tens of them. In fact except for bearing failure, what can actually go wrong with an AC induction motor? There's only one moving part.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 14th October 22:20