Discussion
Kawasicki said:
i also think it is funny that people who are supporting the notion that fwd is as balanced as a rwd keep suggesting that the rwd fans should drive a modern fwd race car.
Whilst we are drifting away from the OPIt is very obvious which is the better system, what percentage of the best Sports / Super cars are FWD ?
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Zonda, Mclaren, Koenigsegg, Bugatti....
Debaser said:
Nigel_O said:
Assuming the Megane driver has the option to give it more power (i.e. It wasn't already at full throttle), the oversteer would reduce, which is the polar opposite of what would happen to a rwd car in the same position
Exactly. The balance of the car when accelerating is most definitely affected by which wheels are driven. RWD can be balanced, FWD always shifts towards understeer.
Debaser said:
Assuming he's not mid-spin, what would happen to the Megane in that picture if the driver gave it full acceleration?
Would the amount of oversteer keep increasing, remain the same indefinitely, or reduce?
As the front wheels tend to be in front of the rear wheels, it would simply neutralise the car which is precisely the intended outcome, as previously explained twice, NOT create understeer. More than one way to skin a cat like I am patiently explaining, using different techniques. Would the amount of oversteer keep increasing, remain the same indefinitely, or reduce?
Kawasicki said:
i also think it is funny that people who are supporting the notion that fwd is as balanced as a rwd keep suggesting that the rwd fans should drive a modern fwd race car. I have driven a lot of fwd race cars with lsd and my perception of physics hasnt changed. rwd please.
I am a masssive RWD fan. And a massive FWD fan. That is entirely possible. Physics apply to both. Technique has to be adapted, which I am struggling to explain, admittedly.nickfrog said:
Debaser said:
Assuming he's not mid-spin, what would happen to the Megane in that picture if the driver gave it full acceleration?
Would the amount of oversteer keep increasing, remain the same indefinitely, or reduce?
As the front wheels tend to be in front of the rear wheels, it would simply neutralise the car which is precisely the intended outcome, as previously explained twice, NOT create understeer. More than one way to skin a cat like I am patiently explaining, using different techniques. Would the amount of oversteer keep increasing, remain the same indefinitely, or reduce?
that means it tends towards understeer
which is what debaser keeps stating
nickfrog said:
How can it understeer if it doesn't understeer?
because the tendency is toward understeer, even if the balance stays on the oversteer side.when a car is oversteering with 2 turns of lock and a huge slip angle, then for whatever reason begins to corner with only 1 turn of opposite lock and moderate slip angle it has shifted toward a more understeering balance
and fwd always tends toward understeer when you get on the power, which is why I prefer rwd
nickfrog said:
I am a masssive RWD fan. And a massive FWD fan. That is entirely possible. Physics apply to both. Technique has to be adapted, which I am struggling to explain, admittedly.
Me too, both can be brilliant. And even poor versions of both can be a great laugh (I've enjoyed driving a 1.1 ohv mk3 escort, and a Morris ital in the past). Very good versions of both are of course a more serious and rewarding proposition. I'm struggling a little to understand the argument that FWD doesn't 'tend' towards understeer on the power. I do understand that technically, understeer or oversteer steady state attitude is nothing to do with driven wheels but is about the relative front and rear suspension roll centers vs CoG etc. I've also driven many FWD cars with clever differentials that help tuck the front in at least initially (I always felt that was reducing understeer). Crack handed throttle application will still then push the front wider? But why would you be crack handed unless messing around. Also, Some of the trickiest catches I've had to make have been catching lift off oversteer in FWD cars (a trait I don't particularly enjoy but ultimately it's a driver error on my side).
I don't hold with the belief that one is good and the other is bad. I do believe that the underlying characteristics are quite different and they benefit from a different driving style and techniques.
Throwing a good FWD car down a very twisty B road is amongst my favorite road driving experiences.
The subtle steering on the throttle through fast sweeping bends in my Evora is another.
Edited by Hungrymc on Sunday 18th December 19:21
Kawasicki said:
nickfrog said:
How can it understeer if it doesn't understeer?
because the tendency is toward understeer, even if the balance stays on the oversteer side.when a car is oversteering with 2 turns of lock and a huge slip angle, then for whatever reason begins to corner with only 1 turn of opposite lock and moderate slip angle it has shifted toward a more understeering balance
and fwd always tends toward understeer when you get on the power, which is why I prefer rwd
nickfrog said:
In the words of Pistonheads about the Megane:
"Turning in on the brakes reveals a much livelier rear end than the Leon - very lively in fact - but once mastered there's a beautifully uncorrupted sense of gliding across the surface on tip toes with plenty of options open as to how to gather it up. Tip it in early on the brakes and you can four-wheel drift the Megane with the wheel pretty much at the dead ahead, pick your exit point and then feed in the power to pull it straight at the moment of your choosing."
This says exactly what others are trying to explain to you and you keep ignoring - applying the power will still move it towards understeer."Turning in on the brakes reveals a much livelier rear end than the Leon - very lively in fact - but once mastered there's a beautifully uncorrupted sense of gliding across the surface on tip toes with plenty of options open as to how to gather it up. Tip it in early on the brakes and you can four-wheel drift the Megane with the wheel pretty much at the dead ahead, pick your exit point and then feed in the power to pull it straight at the moment of your choosing."
I have a RWD, a 4x4 and a hybrid that is RWD at low speed, FWD most of the time and 4x4 occasionally. For getting from A to B in one piece, FWD is the least dramatic and most sensible. The most likely thing your going to induce is a bit of torque steer or harmless under-steer. But I really loath torque steer. The hybrid is not designed to be driven anywhere near the limit and it gets as confused as Manuel from Fawlty Towers when the pressure is on and is equally amusing.
nickfrog said:
Kawasicki said:
nickfrog said:
How can it understeer if it doesn't understeer?
because the tendency is toward understeer, even if the balance stays on the oversteer side.when a car is oversteering with 2 turns of lock and a huge slip angle, then for whatever reason begins to corner with only 1 turn of opposite lock and moderate slip angle it has shifted toward a more understeering balance
and fwd always tends toward understeer when you get on the power, which is why I prefer rwd
Debaser said:
nickfrog said:
Kawasicki said:
nickfrog said:
How can it understeer if it doesn't understeer?
because the tendency is toward understeer, even if the balance stays on the oversteer side.when a car is oversteering with 2 turns of lock and a huge slip angle, then for whatever reason begins to corner with only 1 turn of opposite lock and moderate slip angle it has shifted toward a more understeering balance
and fwd always tends toward understeer when you get on the power, which is why I prefer rwd
It is possible to reduce and eliminate rear slip without losing front lateral friction. It has nothing to do with understeer. It is simply because the (tractive) front wheels happen to be in front of the car. They pull the entire car without needing to generate slip themselves.
nickfrog said:
Again, it neutralises itself, CRUCIALLY without any loss of front lat grip (the very definition of understeer).
It is possible to reduce and eliminate rear slip without losing front lateral friction. It has nothing to do with understeer. It is simply because the (tractive) front wheels happen to be in front of the car. They pull the entire car without needing to generate slip themselves.
If the balance is shifting from oversteer to neutral, then it is tending towards understeer.It is possible to reduce and eliminate rear slip without losing front lateral friction. It has nothing to do with understeer. It is simply because the (tractive) front wheels happen to be in front of the car. They pull the entire car without needing to generate slip themselves.
Also, it's impossible for you to get round a corner with no lateral slip at the front contact patches.
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