Discussion
The Hypno-Toad said:
1.) Won't answer to the logic of my question, just considers it boring. I was inferring that he could make more money from running with only Saab rather than mucking about with Spyker, if he has faith in the product.
I have no opinion on such matters based on a simple fact I have little to no information regarding Muller's personal fortune and hands on dealings with either company. You however suggests whatever Muller's up to you appear to know better or what's best, rather suggesting every turn is part of Muller's machinations to feather his own cap and leave Saab dead and buried. I would enjoy to read the factual evidence you have of such ridiculous nonsense.Toad said:
2.) Ah humour. Sorry missed that. I tend to make my jokes stand out rather than bury them in the middle of considered reply about an important topic.
Yawn.Toad said:
4.) Nope. not just me. Nearly everyone on here and in the motoring press thinks that it won't work.
I believe the academic view point is Saab need to introduce a premier class car to the Asian market which offers similar position to Saab's place in the European market as a low volume niche player offering quirky alternatives to those of Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. This is not my personal opinion but I see the logic in it and would like that Saab could find such a place in the world market.
Toad said:
5.) Yes you did. You inferred that one website and the information that it gave you supplied more accurate information than the rest of the motoring press put together.
Nope son definitely not. I've taken no information from there. I merely suggested you might be better off looking to other sources of information from perhaps more intelligent sources was all. To help you understand such I chose to show you an example of where such might be found was all. Toad said:
6.) Better to be immatue than to be totally naive as to how the world of business, manufacturering and commerce actual work.
If you say so son. Come back on that one when you've grown up, been in good business for years, without borrowing, and in debt to no one. Then I might take your opinion as valid 
Toad said:
But unless those magazines are a registered charity then they have to sell copies to someone.
And indeed they do. You missed the point regarding the type of persons and levels of business they cater to. Sounds like you did little more than open the link and close it again. Toad said:
[b]7.) Again you claimed back in the thread that you knew someone who said that what was happening was all standard Chinese business practice and that everything with the deal was fine. As you aren't prepared to
name names or even give a vague clue as to who they might be your source is irrelevent. It could be your mothers brothers sisters boyfriend for all we know, where as I'm quoting respected business websites and even a Saab fan site. I would suspect that it is mearly an article from one of those specialist trade magazines you are so keen on.[/b]
No you're not listening again. I said someone I know was confident was all and that was good enough for me given I've listened to and asked those who I consider to be best placed to be well informed. I'm gracious enough to have shared that I have information of some worthiness without the spin you read, you repeat, you buy. You should not be so rude as to presume I need reveal the identity of such persons to quantify my sharing of such. If you don't believe there's some confidence in some people closer to these matters than you or I then that is your prerogative and you're free to believe whatever you find out yourself aren't you. I certainly didn't share the comment for an idiot to ridicule it. Take it or leave it son. It was for my ears only after all. name names or even give a vague clue as to who they might be your source is irrelevent. It could be your mothers brothers sisters boyfriend for all we know, where as I'm quoting respected business websites and even a Saab fan site. I would suspect that it is mearly an article from one of those specialist trade magazines you are so keen on.[/b]
Toad said:
8.) At least you are now admiting that he might not the worlds best business brain. Good. You're making progress.
No you're at it again. I said I didn't know Muller was all and that he could be the biggest jerk walking. I made no reference what so ever as to his business acumen.Toad said:
9.) So if, as you claim you have no link to Saab or Muller and therefore no extra information aren't you doing exactly the same thing. Your opinion, my opinion, we both don't have all the facts. Its just that my information would appear to come from more reliable sources than my uncles nephews aunt once went to Shanghai or a magazine group that exists to print ego stroking stories for motor trade CEOs.
I don't believe I've offered a single solitary opinion of mine as to Saab and Muller's future. What I've done is point out there's a lot of bull based on rehashed information, thrown about this topic. Mainly by you. Toad said:
11.) All news websites that I have quoted from are just electronic versions of newpapers or magazines. As has been proved by the superjunction issue in the UK at the moment, they can't just print rubbish. They are printing checked and verified stories which previously you would have picked up at the newsagents. You seem to believe that everything on the web is just gossip but only when it applies to information that disagrees with your view. Again, all the information is either out there on the web or even linked back in this thread with named sources.
Do show where any of these reliable sources of information know the inner dealings of anything Saab related that we can get our teeth into. All you've done is add your personal opinion to the most obvious of headlines which are common news stories surrounding Saab. You have no idea of anything more tangible. Thus nothing of great importance to say toward Saab's future.toad said:
12.) The reason why I'm annoyed about this, is that Muller is just playing. He hasn't got enough money to run Saab properly but thought by borrowing European taxpayers money he could become a major player. Saab have always needed a major player to take them over, not just to become a play thing of people who won't be affected when it all goes wrong.
What? Are you really this naive? How could you possibly know what Muller is up to? Your machinations are worse than those you accuse him of. Toad said:
That's ok. I would prefer to argue with someone who uses logic and can name published sources to back up their arguements rather than someone who thinks that the whole motoring media and therefore anyone who agrees with them is part of a giant conspiracy to ruin a company.
I've offered no argument. Simply suggested your scaremongering is beyond an acceptable level based on you not having any real facts and your sources being nothing more than you spinning up news reports from around the web. I speak of no conspiracy. That would be you in reference to our Mr Muller.Toad said:
Saab aren't selling enough cars & haven't been for the last 20 years. The general public prefer other makes of car as the worldwide sales figures prove and no longer feel Saab are revelent to the market place. Saab have no money left in the bank to either advertise their existence or launch any new models that might sell. A retail business basically works by people buying your product, you take a profit to develop new product and pay yourself a wage, you introduce new product, it sells etc. Saab is not performing to that model at the moment or even getting anywhere near. They need investment running into billions to help get them out of this mess. Muller has been trying to find this investment since he took over the company. This he hasn't been able to do and this has not helped the companies already damaged image.
36.000 units says otherwise. More so given Saab's target market has never seen them shift more than 150.000 units a year at the height of their production. They might do better if idiots would leave them alone and let those best placed to get on with the business of securing a future for Saab try and do exactly that. gawdlpus said:
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
What would my opinion be then, seeing as I've not actually offred one other than to sit and wait and see what happens? Spouting a lot of crap here isn't going to help is it. Which is why I've not!Pistachio said:
Lost confidence is another word for Hyundai paying better margins due to the cars being manufactured in Korea at a lower cost so the margin of profit is greater. It has nothing to do with the brand. I guess dealers will shift anything as long as it makes a profit. Hyundai and Kia are driving hard in to the market place with eco cars that the main manufacturers didnt do until it was too late. In Sweden..(the actual coal face!!) Hyundai and Kia are selling like hot cakes due to taxation laws brought in by the Swedish government. Helping their own brands I dont think so. In the UK we have also done a new trade deal with Korea which will mean even cheaper products or even more profit for dealers… So SAAB being in trouble is nothing to do with lack of confidence it is pure profit…The SAAB dealer in Sussex funnily went over to Hyundai as well.
The SAAB demise is due to lack lustre products with no image driver (a common problem with Swedish brands - as showing off is not a Swedish trait they would rather wear sack cloth than a nice jacket)
Much closer to any truth. The SAAB demise is due to lack lustre products with no image driver (a common problem with Swedish brands - as showing off is not a Swedish trait they would rather wear sack cloth than a nice jacket)
I find such quite inspiring. Saab can sell given their unique size and product in the market place. They just need a firm footing. It's not hard to find less than 100.000 people if the product is what Saab are recognised for. That's where my faith in Saab's future lies. Fingers crossed it'll happen.
There has been very little confidence in the product for the last 5 years and now it is at an all time low. If no one is buying the cars it is hard to feel that confident.
There are very few dealers selling enough cars to make a profit and therefore the franchise must go
Why do you think there are less than 55 retail dealers left in the country? - down from over 100 5 years ago?
Why does no one want the retail franchise anymore?
Its because you can't make money out of it!
That is the only reason that the dealer is Sussex also pulled out and went to a brand that is selling.
For a long time I ignored the facts but once you open your eyes it is a very worrying time for Saab
If the cars were half as good as those on Saabs United think there would be no problem.
I would suggest that as this recession bites and fuel prices rise people might well become less badge orientated and will just want something that will get them from a to b cheaply and without fuss. The Koreans/ Japanese offer that with their modern styling and long warranty.
As Saab is no longer seen as a prestige brand I think they are in a very vulnerable place.
http://www.totallymotor.co.uk/new-car-news/2011/05...
SMMT figures back it up as well
SMMT figures back it up as well
Edited by Pistachio on Wednesday 25th May 12:37
Slade Alive said:
gawdlpus said:
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
Spouting a lot of crap here isn't going to help is it. Which is why I've not!
Hello again son, dude, mate, friend (Sorry what are we calling each other today?)
That period in exile lasted a long time!!
What you did say is that you wouldn't be bothered answering anymore of my replies. Obviously you are so worried about the strength of your arguements you feel the need to come back on here to defend your position, which by yet again by not making any attempt to back up your opinions or posting any facts again about the issue you've singulary failed to do.
As you just seem to ignore the evidence I will just draw you up on one point. gawdlpus is a SAAB SALESMAN (or was.), he was selling the cars, he says its a disaster area out there. For the 100th time its not just me who has these opinions and I really can't be bothered to explain to you yet again the situation regarding SALES & REGISTRATIONS. Its all back in the thread. As gawdlpus has just said the niche market for Saab is shrinking rapidly because people are really having to reign in the pennies and unless they can get rock solid residuals (Audi, Merc, BMW.) are down sizing to something fuel efficent, reliable, with a good warrenty and reputation that will last so that you know you have no hidden costs coming over the next 5 years. (which is the amount of time that some manufacturers are giving as part of their warrenty package.)
Again with reference to "son", "grown up" and "business for as long as I have" comments, what sort of person are you? One minute you make out like you're a surfer dude, the next minute you are patronising old guffer who has seen it all and done it all. I have made a very nice living out of the motor trade, thanks. Hopefully, in the near future, you won't be shown some harsh realities of just how hard it will be trading in a brand that no longer exists and that no one except for 1500 people on a website, care about.
Pistachio yet again those are vehicle registration figures NOT actual retail sales figures!
Any registration will obviously show as a sale on those figures but in reality a large number of those units the are just being pre registered by the Saab dealers to either get to target or to get a bigger discount from Saab UK.
This month we sold only 3 retail cars. We are however registering 14 cars as are we are pre registering 11 cars. These cars will be sold as new but with £1000''s off the screen price.
The figures may well show the 14 but the truth will be that 3 have sold and 11 are sat on the forecourt. Do you get it? Have a look how many nearly new cars are on auto trader next month.
When those cars do eventually sell Saab and it's dealers will be making a reduced profit compared to the other 3 in the norm.
Any registration will obviously show as a sale on those figures but in reality a large number of those units the are just being pre registered by the Saab dealers to either get to target or to get a bigger discount from Saab UK.
This month we sold only 3 retail cars. We are however registering 14 cars as are we are pre registering 11 cars. These cars will be sold as new but with £1000''s off the screen price.
The figures may well show the 14 but the truth will be that 3 have sold and 11 are sat on the forecourt. Do you get it? Have a look how many nearly new cars are on auto trader next month.
When those cars do eventually sell Saab and it's dealers will be making a reduced profit compared to the other 3 in the norm.
I think there is more than 1500 people interested in SAAB see http://www.facebook.com/Saab
also I feed you http://inside.saab.com/ ….again
also I feed you http://inside.saab.com/ ….again
gawdlpus said:
Pistachio yet again those are vehicle registration figures NOT actual retail sales figures!
Any registration will obviously show as a sale on those figures but in reality a large number of those units the are just being pre registered by the Saab dealers to either get to target or to get a bigger discount from Saab UK.
This month we sold only 3 retail cars. We are however registering 14 cars as are we are pre registering 11 cars. These cars will be sold as new but with £1000''s off the screen price.
The figures may well show the 14 but the truth will be that 3 have sold and 11 are sat on the forecourt. Do you get it? Have a look how many nearly new cars are on auto trader next month.
When those cars do eventually sell Saab and it's dealers will be making a reduced profit compared to the other 3 in the norm.
And so is everyone else Mercedes, Audi etc…so whats the story nothing new….all the brands pre register cars and put them on the forecourt as used.Any registration will obviously show as a sale on those figures but in reality a large number of those units the are just being pre registered by the Saab dealers to either get to target or to get a bigger discount from Saab UK.
This month we sold only 3 retail cars. We are however registering 14 cars as are we are pre registering 11 cars. These cars will be sold as new but with £1000''s off the screen price.
The figures may well show the 14 but the truth will be that 3 have sold and 11 are sat on the forecourt. Do you get it? Have a look how many nearly new cars are on auto trader next month.
When those cars do eventually sell Saab and it's dealers will be making a reduced profit compared to the other 3 in the norm.
Audi is swamping Sweden with low cost lease deals on its A1 at the moment and it looks like the way to go to get people into cars is lease deals
I get it but this continued negativity about the brand does not help your cause, if you guys are negative/realistic call it what you will then the customers pickup on it.
Most people don't even know that SAAB is saved a year ago and thats a fact so it seems more people( not just car industry people) need to be informed.
I am not saying it is easy, absolutely it is not but worth a go as the new cars are going to be even better
Edited by Pistachio on Wednesday 25th May 12:53
That article is way off. The target for this year started at 22000 units. We are now half way through the year and have sold 2866 allegedly even though the march boom has passed. Even with Saabs alarmingly reduced sales figure of 11000 for the year they are still miles off target. To say the percentage increase is so high is pure fluff as they were absolutely dismal last year.
And as to "The larger 9-5 Saloon is proving to be popular in the larger saloon segment " that is junk. I've seen 3 on the open road since last year!! I've seen more Ferrari's than Saab 95's so how on earth can they suggest it is popular. This is the sort of BS and speel that gives false hope.
So Slade and the nut are blaming the dealers for wanting to earn money? Ok then
And as to "The larger 9-5 Saloon is proving to be popular in the larger saloon segment " that is junk. I've seen 3 on the open road since last year!! I've seen more Ferrari's than Saab 95's so how on earth can they suggest it is popular. This is the sort of BS and speel that gives false hope.
So Slade and the nut are blaming the dealers for wanting to earn money? Ok then
gawdlpus said:
That article is way off. The target for this year started at 22000 units. We are now half way through the year and have sold 2866 allegedly even though the march boom has passed. Even with Saabs alarmingly reduced sales figure of 11000 for the year they are still miles off target. To say the percentage increase is so high is pure fluff as they were absolutely dismal last year.
And as to "The larger 9-5 Saloon is proving to be popular in the larger saloon segment " that is junk. I've seen 3 on the open road since last year!! I've seen more Ferrari's than Saab 95's so how on earth can they suggest it is popular. This is the sort of BS and speel that gives false hope.
So Slade and the nut are blaming the dealers for wanting to earn money? Ok then
Its called marketing And as to "The larger 9-5 Saloon is proving to be popular in the larger saloon segment " that is junk. I've seen 3 on the open road since last year!! I've seen more Ferrari's than Saab 95's so how on earth can they suggest it is popular. This is the sort of BS and speel that gives false hope.
So Slade and the nut are blaming the dealers for wanting to earn money? Ok then
isnt it telling people what they want to hear….Also I am not blaming dealers for wanting to earn money but there the brand loyalty dissapears as the more profitable brand will be more desirable to sell, quite fickle but good business…Probably SAAB needs new dealers with a fresh outlook maybe
Edited by Pistachio on Wednesday 25th May 12:59
You really haven't got a clue of how bad it is or the real world of selling Saabs have you.
I don't think many would even consider the franchise anymore. Sytner group only has one Saab dealer and has never wanted anymore even though they were offered the chance.
Regardless I'm just wasting my time and I assume I must feel like those who must now talk to the supporters of Harold Camping as there belief will out weigh any fact or point of view that they don't like themselves.
Good luck - not that you'll need it as LOL
Oh yes 84000 followers on facebook means everything
I don't think many would even consider the franchise anymore. Sytner group only has one Saab dealer and has never wanted anymore even though they were offered the chance.
Regardless I'm just wasting my time and I assume I must feel like those who must now talk to the supporters of Harold Camping as there belief will out weigh any fact or point of view that they don't like themselves.
Good luck - not that you'll need it as LOL
Oh yes 84000 followers on facebook means everything
gawdlpus said:
You really haven't got a clue of how bad it is or the real world of selling Saabs have you.
I don't think many would even consider the franchise anymore. Sytner group only has one Saab dealer and has never wanted anymore even though they were offered the chance.
Regardless I'm just wasting my time and I assume I must feel like those who must now talk to the supporters of Harold Camping as there belief will out weigh any fact or point of view that they don't like themselves.
Good luck - not that you'll need it as LOL
Oh yes 84000 followers on facebook means everything
Sorry chap you are obviously having a hard time at it and I am sorry but the fact is that a lot of people are trying to keep SAAB afloat and you are not alone in trying to sell them. All the media attention is all going towards getting it back where it belongs as it was in the 1980 before GM…a good product with a premium market place.I don't think many would even consider the franchise anymore. Sytner group only has one Saab dealer and has never wanted anymore even though they were offered the chance.
Regardless I'm just wasting my time and I assume I must feel like those who must now talk to the supporters of Harold Camping as there belief will out weigh any fact or point of view that they don't like themselves.
Good luck - not that you'll need it as LOL
Oh yes 84000 followers on facebook means everything
Audi used to be rust buckets, Skoda's were a joke but they all fought back and look where they are today
Just for the record I do have a clue how bad it is. i am not an armchair enthusiast. But it it is not impossible to turn around but obviously you cant do it on your own
gawdlpus said:
They were losing money in the 80's too. That's why they sold to GM. Otherwise Saab would have never made it through the 90's. I small fact but an equally relevant one.
Yep true but it doesn't mean they cannot make money now though especially with Chinese interest in the brand which is pretty big much like Volvo'sLets wait and see...
My educated guess is that certainly in the short/ mid term it is not worth the risk and I am leaving.
It is easy to say what to do behind a computer screen when you might "like Saab" but when your wages are reliant on the brand it's a very different story! You'll have noted that no other Saab employee on here has shouted me down!
It is easy to say what to do behind a computer screen when you might "like Saab" but when your wages are reliant on the brand it's a very different story! You'll have noted that no other Saab employee on here has shouted me down!
gawdlpus said:
My educated guess is that certainly in the short/ mid term it is not worth the risk and I am leaving.
It is easy to say what to do behind a computer screen when you might "like Saab" but when your wages are reliant on the brand it's a very different story! You'll have noted that no other Saab employee on here has shouted me down!
How do you know I don't work for SAAB…. but right at the coal face literally and no I am not SWADE but just someone who wants it to succeed and certainly my wages are reliant on SAAB succeedingIt is easy to say what to do behind a computer screen when you might "like Saab" but when your wages are reliant on the brand it's a very different story! You'll have noted that no other Saab employee on here has shouted me down!
Many Thanks I think we will all need it
http://www.thelocal.se/33990/20110525/#
basically Swedish Government sitting on the fence at the moment despite well meaning billionaires offering shed loads of cash……crazy blaming it on GM and EIB delay
http://www.thelocal.se/33990/20110525/#
basically Swedish Government sitting on the fence at the moment despite well meaning billionaires offering shed loads of cash……crazy blaming it on GM and EIB delay
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