RE: PH Heroes: Lotus Carlton

[B'stard Child]

damiwi said:

A load of tripe 99.9% unrelated to the topic

I was being generous with the percentage too

[damiwi]

lord summerisle said:

damiwi said:

Okay, so you don't get to join the debate and if you do express an opinion, regardless of how valid or accurate that automatically enters you into the 'Troll' of the month contest. What's the point of having these forums if you're only supposed to write what people want you to write and any view that is either original or different or actually realistic is classed as heresy. What a boring world we would live in, something like this.

naw jim, a debate is where each side listens and debates soemthing...

not...

"BMW rides better than anything made by lotus"

"try the Lotus XXXXXX"

"nope dont believe you"

"have you tried it"

"nope, dont care but the BWM E39 M5 is the greatest ever ever, the carlton doesnt compare - its a tired old car"

"have you driven one?"

"nope, dont care..la la la"

My post had a little bit more imagination though, don't you think.

Nice try.


But I don't need to actually drive a Lotus XXXXXXX to debate how it will
ride in comparison to a BMW XXXXXXX, I have read plenty of reviews of cars

e.g.

Re: 2004 Lotus Elise (Car and Driver)
Highs: Mongoose reflexes, tenacious grip, plenty of squirt.
Lows: Formidable interior noise, unforgiving ride quality, contortionistic ingress-egress.
The Verdict: Marginal practicality, unbeatable fun to drive.

Lotus Elise 2007 (Car and Driver)

The ride is harsh by daily-driver standards

5th Gear review
The Exige fixed-roof coupe is aimed at even harder-cored drivers. It's great on a racetrack, but very loud and uncomfortable on public roads.

Top Gear - Lotus Elise SC 2008

Sure, the new car still feels as good and improves in all the important areas - build quality is much better, ride is slightly more civilised, it looks sharper, gearbox shift is tighter - but you can understand why these things were such a revelation back then.

You can have a debate about World War II without having to have fought in World War II.

But then again can you believe everything written by the motoring press... when has that ever stopped a debate.

How about...

I've driven two minis, therefore I know how all BMW's ride... as somebody suggested I forget who... that's scientific.

[GTO Scott]

Damiwi - you are not being called a troll/arsehole/etc for stating that the M5 is better in your opinion, it is because you seem to expect us to all suddenly agree with you.

If we were all the same, wouldn't the world be boring? The M5 may be better in some ways, and in others the LC will be better. Apart from price, they aren't really comparable cars. For 15k I would have a choice of great cars, it all comes down to personal taste.

The M5 is a great car, a brilliant one even, but it isn't an icon.

Edited by GTO Scott on Thursday 7th February 22:43

[damiwi]

GTO Scott said:

Damiwi - you are not being called a troll/arsehole/etc for stating that the M5 is better in your opinion, it is because you seem to expect us to all suddenly agree with you.

If we were all the same, wouldn't the world be boring? The M5 may be better in some ways, and in others the LC will be better. Apart from price, they aren't really comparable cars. For 15k I would have a choice of great cars, it all comes down to personal taste.

The M5 is a great car, a brilliant one even, but it isn't an icon.

Edited by GTO Scott on Thursday 7th February 22:43

When have ever suggested that you or anyone should agree with me.

I've been called some of the above, simply for expressing my opinion.

I stated that a neutral party should drive both an M5 and an LC before parting with their cash. I never said they have to agree with me.

Thankfully with people like you in it the world will never be boring.

And the M division cars do get called Iconic also, so why mislead people by stating otherwise.

And even if someone did happen to state, 'I think you should all agree with me'

Isn't that just an opinion expressed by that person, why would you have to insult someone for just writing something like that, it's not trolling.

If I said that I though Ashes to Ashes was good tonight and I think the actress is one hell of a sexy babe, I think you should agree.

Would you call me a troll and asshole.

[lord summerisle]

damiwi said:

I stated that a neutral party should drive both an M5 and an LC before parting with their cash. I never said they have to agree with me.

umm

damiwi said:

You're asking why I was comparing the E39 M5 with the Lotus Carlton... it's obvious isn't it, money. You can now buy an excellent E39 M5 for less than average Lotus Carlton money. My point is to the neutral reader, don't buy the LC unless you're deluded or a serious LC fanatic without comparing it with the E39 M5 first. Now what on Earth is wrong with that Logic.

so they dont have to agree with you... but they're deluded if they dont buy a depreciating old banger of a BMW

[B'stard Child]

GTO Scott said:

Damiwi - you are not being called a troll/arsehole/etc for stating that the M5 is better in your opinion, it is because you seem to expect us to all suddenly agree with you.

If we were all the same, wouldn't the world be boring? The M5 may be better in some ways, and in others the LC will be better. Apart from price, they aren't really comparable cars. For 15k I would have a choice of great cars, it all comes down to personal taste.

The M5 is a great car, a brilliant one even, but it isn't an icon.

Edited by GTO Scott on Thursday 7th February 22:43

That same point has been made so many times by so many people in this thread. In another 20 pages Damiwi still won't get it - he's entitled to an opinion he's stated it several times but bottom line is he's not prepared to let other people hava a different opinion

It's not a thread debating Lotus Carlton v E39 M5

Definatley not a thread about BMW Mini v Lotus Elise

It couldn't be more simple

[damiwi]

Here is an experiment I conducted

Google hits

"iconic Lotus Carlton" = 4 hits
"iconic M5" = 24 hits

or

+icon +M5 +bmw = 23700
+icon +lotus +carlton = 9000

So how is the M5 not an Icon but the Lotus Carlton is... ???

[damiwi]

lord summerisle said:

damiwi said:

I stated that a neutral party should drive both an M5 and an LC before parting with their cash. I never said they have to agree with me.

umm

damiwi said:

You're asking why I was comparing the E39 M5 with the Lotus Carlton... it's obvious isn't it, money. You can now buy an excellent E39 M5 for less than average Lotus Carlton money. My point is to the neutral reader, don't buy the LC unless you're deluded or a serious LC fanatic without comparing it with the E39 M5 first. Now what on Earth is wrong with that Logic.

so they dont have to agree with you... but they're deluded if they dont buy a depreciating old banger of a BMW

Eh... you're selective on your highlighting

Why didn't you highlight the bit that said... "without comparing it to the E39 M5 first"

I didn't say you're deluded if you don't buy the M5.

[lord summerisle]

damiwi said:

Why didn't you highlight the bit that said... "without comparing it to the E39 M5 first"

Because - if your looking to buy a Lotus Calton... then there is apsolutly NO piont wasting time getting behind the wheel of a BMW... because quite simply it isnt a Lotus. simple as that. no ifs, no buts - the LC is an icon - of its time.

this discussion is as nutty as this fella


Now Lets see - 24ltr W12 aero engine 550bhp on a 1928 Bentley chassis, skinny cross ply historic tryes...

Sure its not quite as quick as some other (younger) vintage cars... but by gawd its an Icon af the VSCC - its an event - it draws the punters...

Its the same as the Calton - its an icon of its time. the M5 is just *another* non descript fast german saloon limited to 155mph in a long line of them

[damiwi]

Quinny said:

Thing is, if I wanted to read a thread about BMW's I'd find one and click on it.

This thread is about the Lotus Carlton. I really couldn't give a flying how it compares to anything really

I was just looking forward to a thread about the Carlton, and it was nice to hear of owners experiences, and how people viewed it as an Icon etc.

You've added absolutly nothing of value to the thread, and you still haven't picked up on the fact that no one on this thread gives a shit about BM's Merc's or anything else not LC related.

Do you get it yet??





WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

I doubt it

So how come at the beginning of the thread people start making comparisons with other cars. Isn't that how you measure a car by comparing it to other cars. I wasn't the first person to mention the M5 either.

What gives you the right to make up the rules for a thread or judge how other people view the contributions made by a member of the forum.

How do you know I haven't added value to the thread, I've pointed out that the M5 is also an Iconic car, contrary to the deliberate misleading comments of others.

Why do you feel it's open season to attack my views.

What's this 'do you get it yet'

or

the 'whooshhhh'

Is that the air going between your ears or something.

If I get misquoted by some pseudo smart arse, I'm going to respond, end of story. If you don't like it, just ignore it. If you don't agree with me fine... what you wanted to read here is your own business, I don't share it, I read this forum to see how people thought the Lotus Carlton compares to other cars, I didn't come here for some Lotus Carlton Porno fantasy.

If you don't like me, who cares, grow up, get a life... heck get a Lotus Carlton if you want, live the dream, I have.

[damiwi]

lord summerisle said:

Because - if your looking to buy a Lotus Calton... then there is apsolutly NO piont wasting time getting behind the wheel of a BMW... because quite simply it isnt a Lotus. simple as that. no ifs, no buts - the LC is an icon - of its time.

That's not it at all, you were trying to make out that I was saying that if you bought the Lotus Carlton you were delusional, you didn't read the paragraph properly and got it wrong.... that's really what happened, you haven't even got the decency to admit it or apologise.

You thought you were being clever

Edited by damiwi on Friday 8th February 00:13

[damiwi]

Quinny said:

Ah I see, because you've pointed out that the M5 is also an Iconic car, then it must be so.

Well thats all fine and dandy, so why not start a thread about this Icon




And yes the WOOOOOSH was my post going straight over, as expected really.

So are you going to rush out and buy a Lotus Carlton, has this thread wetted your appetite. If you had 15K to play with what car would you spend it on?

Have you ever owned a classic iconic car, I have... I know all the joys and all the sadnesses.

[tali1]

I'm a fan of both cars- but the M5 IS an icon -it seems to be rejected by LC fans here simply because they are common and come in lots of guises? - but so does a 911 and that is an icon

[lord summerisle]

tali1 said:

I'm a fan of both cars- but the M5 IS an icon -

indeed - hence why it has its own PH Heroes thread here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

tali1 said:

it seems to be rejected by LC fans here simply because they are common and come in lots of guises? - but so does a 911 and that is an icon

Not rejected - just dont see the point of this discussion - this aint a 'what car?' thread... but about the LC, what its like to drive, and its impact on its release and why its a great

the last 10 pages are because of this ill founded drivvel

damiwi said:

For a kick off they struggled to achieve anything over 160mph and that was revving the nuts off because it couldn't pull top gear.

If you compared one with an E39 M5, the Carlton would feel like a bag of spanners.

Totally over hyped and over rated vehicle in my opinion that couldn't live up to the speel.

Rose tinted glasses.

I think there is one on Autotrader advertised for over 40K, must be bonkers.

Having had an M3 and an FQ-360MR, I'm going back to the M5, best car I ever owned.

[Shropshiremike]

Utopia said:

One such journalist did a "mere" 168mph I believe... in the wet!!

R.

Is that the "Rain Stopped Play" article in CAR by Russell Bulgin? One of my favourite ever

[Utopia]

damiwi said:

Here is an experiment I conducted

Google hits

"iconic Lotus Carlton" = 4 hits
"iconic M5" = 24 hits

or

+icon +M5 +bmw = 23700
+icon +lotus +carlton = 9000

So how is the M5 not an Icon but the Lotus Carlton is... ???

Damiwi,
Yet again, you have completely missed the point. Its not about "How many hits" you can acheieve LOL.

The Lotus Calrton has earnt its place in the Automotive Industry, which makes it infamous, iconic and, quite possibly, legendary - a kind of McLaren F1 of tin tops. Its right to be here needn't be questioned. It earns its wild card both for being the bad-ass blueprint for the megasaloon genre and submitting a set of stats that haven't sagged with age, even though engine technology has ascended from the tree tops to the stratosphere in the intervening decade.

That is a quote from an Automotive Magazine BTW. That is what makes it Iconic ... LOL not how many hits it makes on the web

And again, remember (please!!) that the LC was sold in small numbers, due to the recession. But there are not many cars that had the Media, Policy and even STING (That ageing rock star) protesting against it.

Also, Parliament wanted the car banned!! People felt it should not exist. Thats iconic.

Other manufacturer cars...... well from this view, they are not in the same league as the Lotus Carlton. Rare to see, even rarer to find... just like a McLaren F1. Only ever seen one in real life..... unlikely to see one ever again. Thats also Iconic

I believe you ARE entitled to your own view and opinions. And I do not think people should compare cars unless they have either been for a test drive, or own them.

But that is my own personal view

Do not take offence, but I do believe the Lotus Carlton has alot to be thanked for.... And with cars approaching 600, possibly 700BHP, it can only get better.

Now... I have decided to play the Euro Millions.... and if I win, my car choice would be...

Lotus Carlton (ALWAYS wanted one)
Bugatti Veyron (Love it)
Ford Fiesta.

Why? Simple.... Lotus would be a dream come true... hardly EVER see one
Bugatti... again, never seen one... would love to use as a weekend thing
Ford Fiesta.... Simple A - B car for her indoors

[GTO Scott]

damiwi said:

GTO Scott said:

Damiwi - you are not being called a troll/arsehole/etc for stating that the M5 is better in your opinion, it is because you seem to expect us to all suddenly agree with you.

If we were all the same, wouldn't the world be boring? The M5 may be better in some ways, and in others the LC will be better. Apart from price, they aren't really comparable cars. For 15k I would have a choice of great cars, it all comes down to personal taste.

The M5 is a great car, a brilliant one even, but it isn't an icon.

Edited by GTO Scott on Thursday 7th February 22:43

When have ever suggested that you or anyone should agree with me.

I've been called some of the above, simply for expressing my opinion.

I stated that a neutral party should drive both an M5 and an LC before parting with their cash. I never said they have to agree with me.

Thankfully with people like you in it the world will never be boring.

If you had bothered to read my post, you would have noticed the word 'seem' in italics. At no point did I say that you were openly stating that we should all change our mind and agree with you. It is simply how your posts and opinions come across. Unfortunately your posting style comes across as arrogant (even if it isn't intended as being so) - which I suspect is half the reason you are copping so much flak for what you are saying.

damiwi said:

And the M division cars do get called Iconic also, so why mislead people by stating otherwise.

I never said that there were no 'M' icons, I merely stated that in my opinion the M5 isn't. Admittedly I should have been more specific and said 'E39 M5'. There are iconic 'M' cars - none more so than the one that started it all, the M1. To that list i'd add the E30 M3 and the E28 M5. With time, I might well add the E39 M5 to that list, but not yet.

damiwi said:

And even if someone did happen to state, 'I think you should all agree with me'

Isn't that just an opinion expressed by that person, why would you have to insult someone for just writing something like that, it's not trolling.

If I said that I though Ashes to Ashes was good tonight and I think the actress is one hell of a sexy babe, I think you should agree.

Would you call me a troll and asshole.

Regarding Ashes to Ashes, as much as i'd like to watch it, I haven't had chance yet .

damiwi said:

Here is an experiment I conducted

Google hits

"iconic Lotus Carlton" = 4 hits
"iconic M5" = 24 hits

or

+icon +M5 +bmw = 23700
+icon +lotus +carlton = 9000

So how is the M5 not an Icon but the Lotus Carlton is... ???

This is the final time I shall say this; personal opinion. If you can't understand that, tough.

I might also suggest that you replace your wristwatch with a digital version - otherwise you may find yourself losing track of time........

[D_T_W]

damiwi said:

For a kick off they struggled to achieve anything over 160mph and that was revving the nuts off because it couldn't pull top gear.

If you compared one with an E39 M5, the Carlton would feel like a bag of spanners.

Totally over hyped and over rated vehicle in my opinion that couldn't live up to the speel.

Rose tinted glasses.

I think there is one on Autotrader advertised for over 40K, must be bonkers.

Having had an M3 and an FQ-360MR, I'm going back to the M5, best car I ever owned.

I really like this quote, gives a clear indication of just how little you know about the Lotus Carlton.

Several magazines have reached speeds in excess of 170mph in various LC, and i would imagine that is achieved by thrashing it. I don't see them getting much above 120 mph by short shifting at 4k rpm, do you? Also, could you tell me, what gear does your M5 reach it's max speed in? Can it pull to the limiter in 6th? Mine certainly can't

As has been pointed out numerous times before, the Carlton is at least 10 years older than the E39 M5, hence the M5 feeling "tighter", which is also why it's daft to try and compare then. As i have stated before, the E34 M5 is the equivalent BMW offering. Prices are irrelevant, you can buy a classic E type Jag for £50k, yet i suspect you would want to compare that to say, the current XKR in terms of how it drives?

It more than lived up to its spheel, i would advise reading some reviews of the car fromt the time it was released, it had several road testers amazed at just how good a car it was considering it's humble under pinnings. Of course it had its flaws, but they vanished into insignificance compared to its positives.

I'm pleased you have a varied selection of cars from which to draw comparisons, but unless you've driven one, or at least passengered in one, how can you give an authoritive view?

[10 Pence Short]

If you walked into a crowded 3rd floor office and said you'd just parked a brand spanking new M5 up, right outside the door, on a gleaming day, you'd be lucky if anyone even looked up.

If you walked into a crowded 3rd floor office and said you'd just parked a Lotus Carlton up, at the far end of the car park, and it was pissing down, almost every male in the building would make an effort to have a look.

That's what being an icon is all about.

[V8S]

10 Pence Short said:

If you walked into a crowded 3rd floor office and said you'd just parked a brand spanking new M5 up, right outside the door, on a gleaming day, you'd be lucky if anyone even looked up.

If you walked into a crowded 3rd floor office and said you'd just parked a Lotus Carlton up, at the far end of the car park, and it was pissing down, almost every male in the building would make an effort to have a look.

That's what being an icon is all about.

The M5 is no doubt a great car, but how many here have looked at the classifieds as soon as it was mentioned in this thread. I would guess a great deal less than the number who looked for Carltons.