My first spin on ice.....
Discussion
nottyash said:
Still not convinced.
In the real world, on real roads which have potholes, countours etc and at speeds of 40mph+ I cant see it being a massive advantage.
All them tests show is they can provide more grip and improve stopping distances at slow speeds on a perfectly flat ice ring.
I think if you buy them and drive on the UK roads there is still a good possibility you will spin in the right conditions, they are not excempt from crashing
Perhaps you should try them. I have and they are much better even on ice. But don't expect them to defy the laws of physics or be anywhere near the grip of a summer tyre in the warm. If you slide you're going too fast for the conditions whatever the tyre. Winters just give a bit bigger envelope to use. Some figures I saw the other day said around 30% shorter stopping distance in slippy conditions and 50% less on snow compared to a summer tyre. Not to be sniffed at.In the real world, on real roads which have potholes, countours etc and at speeds of 40mph+ I cant see it being a massive advantage.
All them tests show is they can provide more grip and improve stopping distances at slow speeds on a perfectly flat ice ring.
I think if you buy them and drive on the UK roads there is still a good possibility you will spin in the right conditions, they are not excempt from crashing
Bit of a binary thought process there. Nothing can exempt you from crashing if you're driving beyond the grip levels. Just as with summers on a warm dry day, you can still loose control.
The point is that the OP, an experienced motorist, had adjusted his driving style to suit the conditions yet still came a cropper. Different tyres with higher grip levels would have offered more control in extremis which is when it really counts.
To think it would still make no difference is nonsense.
The point is that the OP, an experienced motorist, had adjusted his driving style to suit the conditions yet still came a cropper. Different tyres with higher grip levels would have offered more control in extremis which is when it really counts.
To think it would still make no difference is nonsense.
rovermorris999 said:
Perhaps you should try them. I have and they are much better even on ice. But don't expect them to defy the laws of physics or be anywhere near the grip of a summer tyre in the warm. If you slide you're going too fast for the conditions whatever the tyre. Winters just give a bit bigger envelope to use. Some figures I saw the other day said around 30% shorter stopping distance in slippy conditions and 50% less on snow compared to a summer tyre. Not to be sniffed at.
Totally agree with driving to suit conditions, in my earlier post i was saying its difficult sometimes as it can catch you out, and a set of winter tyres may or may not save you.I had a set of Bridgestone winter tyres on a Type R Civic EK9 I imported from Japan, however I never used them in anger as it was too warm so they were absoloutly terrible so i cant comment on how good or bad they would be driving on Ice.
As most of my cars are sporty putting winter tyres on is all very well in the snow and Ice but once it warms up they are utterly useless if you drive "quickly".
nottyash said:
rovermorris999 said:
Perhaps you should try them. I have and they are much better even on ice. But don't expect them to defy the laws of physics or be anywhere near the grip of a summer tyre in the warm. If you slide you're going too fast for the conditions whatever the tyre. Winters just give a bit bigger envelope to use. Some figures I saw the other day said around 30% shorter stopping distance in slippy conditions and 50% less on snow compared to a summer tyre. Not to be sniffed at.
Totally agree with driving to suit conditions, in my earlier post i was saying its difficult sometimes as it can catch you out, and a set of winter tyres may or may not save you.I had a set of Bridgestone winter tyres on a Type R Civic EK9 I imported from Japan, however I never used them in anger as it was too warm so they were absoloutly terrible so i cant comment on how good or bad they would be driving on Ice.
As most of my cars are sporty putting winter tyres on is all very well in the snow and Ice but once it warms up they are utterly useless if you drive "quickly".
I'd be interested to see if cars with winter tyres are any less likely to crash - the car can certainly handle better, but in this scenario, with winter tyres, would garlick have been pootling along at 60, instead of 40, thinking 'I'm glad i've got winter tyres on' and not stopped in front of the ditch?
5lab said:
I'd be interested to see if cars with winter tyres are any less likely to crash - the car can certainly handle better, but in this scenario, with winter tyres, would garlick have been pootling along at 60, instead of 40, thinking 'I'm glad i've got winter tyres on' and not stopped in front of the ditch?
Only if he was a dick and I'm sure he's not. 
It is times like that when stability control earns it's money!
Still, sounds like Garlick did the right thing! Never give up with the control inputs, even if you have hit something! ;-)
(and don't underestimate the capability in a modern car of just standing on the brakes hard, as a lot of times people spin, get back into some sort of control, but still with a turn of lock on, and then the car just shoots off into the scenery (modern cars have such a massive yaw capability on their wide low profile tyres that any amount of steering lock can really accelerate the cars inertia suddenly (next time you change lane at say 60mph, just have a look at how little lock you use for example)
Half the battle with little spins like that, is to realise you've lost it early and just hammer the brakes so the car continues to travel down the road (all be it backwards) rather than just continuing to arc off into the scenery on full lock)
Still, sounds like Garlick did the right thing! Never give up with the control inputs, even if you have hit something! ;-)
(and don't underestimate the capability in a modern car of just standing on the brakes hard, as a lot of times people spin, get back into some sort of control, but still with a turn of lock on, and then the car just shoots off into the scenery (modern cars have such a massive yaw capability on their wide low profile tyres that any amount of steering lock can really accelerate the cars inertia suddenly (next time you change lane at say 60mph, just have a look at how little lock you use for example)
Half the battle with little spins like that, is to realise you've lost it early and just hammer the brakes so the car continues to travel down the road (all be it backwards) rather than just continuing to arc off into the scenery on full lock)
Its all about driving to the conditions - and most people in the south are not capable of doing this as its so unusual for them to have to cope with ice, and what to look out for.
When you hit ice there is nothing you can do, winter tyres do not cut through ice you'd need studded tyres to have any effect, when on ice you are just a big heavy toboggan. If you know you are on ice 20 mph is more than fast enough.
When you hit ice there is nothing you can do, winter tyres do not cut through ice you'd need studded tyres to have any effect, when on ice you are just a big heavy toboggan. If you know you are on ice 20 mph is more than fast enough.
Max_Torque said:
Half the battle with little spins like that, is to realise you've lost it early and just hammer the brakes so the car continues to travel down the road (all be it backwards) rather than just continuing to arc off into the scenery on full lock)
Even on an icy road, the car will still stop faster if it's pointing in the correct direction...?rallycross said:
Its all about driving to the conditions - and most people in the south are not capable of doing this as its so unusual for them to have to cope with ice, and what to look out for.
When you hit ice there is nothing you can do, winter tyres do not cut through ice you'd need studded tyres to have any effect, when on ice you are just a big heavy toboggan. If you know you are on ice 20 mph is more than fast enough.
Winter tyres do grip on ice better than summer tyres do. I had a first hand demonstration of this in Norway when I asked the guy driving me if winter tyres are any good. He said "Yes, watch this!" When you hit ice there is nothing you can do, winter tyres do not cut through ice you'd need studded tyres to have any effect, when on ice you are just a big heavy toboggan. If you know you are on ice 20 mph is more than fast enough.
Not like driving on clear roads on summer tyres but we did actually come to a halt, which was a surprise.It was pretty deadly out there yesterday morning. I found a couple of sections of the M27 on the way there very very icy and the 5 was letting me know grip at the rear was very limited. I was amased at how many people in modern barges sailed past me at 80mph without a care in the world. I was going 50mph max!!!
Nick
Nick
This morning, I set off to drop of my 3 year old in my Golf - nothing even remotely interesting than that - it does, however have wide (factory) 18" wheels which had precisely no grip/traction on what was clearly not very much ice. I ended up using the OH's Honda Jazz, which I suspect will now be the main car until spring...
jimbobsimmonds said:
Know what you mean about time slowing down in a spin... Weirdest feeling ever...
As for tyres, does anything short of studs (I think the highways agency as well as every pebble chipped bonnet and broken window on the poor bloke behind you) work on ice???
Even studs don't help if ice is bad. Been there, done it, got the bodyshop bill As for tyres, does anything short of studs (I think the highways agency as well as every pebble chipped bonnet and broken window on the poor bloke behind you) work on ice???
rallycross said:
When you hit ice there is nothing you can do, winter tyres do not cut through ice you'd need studded tyres to have any effect, when on ice you are just a big heavy toboggan. If you know you are on ice 20 mph is more than fast enough.
That is wrong. My Swedish friends drive on compacted snow and ice for the entirety of winter; not one of them uses studded tyres. They drive way faster than 20 down roads on which I have a hard time standing up. In fact the only Swede I know who has spikes on his tyres has them on an ice-racing bike.rallycross said:
Its all about driving to the conditions - and most people in the south are not capable of doing this as its so unusual for them to have to cope with ice, and what to look out for.
Prat.I lived my whole life in the south. So I must be useless when it snows? Nice generalisation
Gizmo! said:
That's funny. The winters on my MX5 (Nankang SV2) were perfectly fine on the hottest days of the year, and under some sustained abuse (e.g. driving down to the Rolls Royce SS last summer).
I agree - I had Quatracs on my Toyota and even in hot weather they feel nicer to drive on than normal summer tyres as they feel so grippy and accurate, and yet they'll still pull the car out of 12 inches of snow. Fabulous tyres all round.Gizmo! said:
Max_Torque said:
Half the battle with little spins like that, is to realise you've lost it early and just hammer the brakes so the car continues to travel down the road (all be it backwards) rather than just continuing to arc off into the scenery on full lock)
Even on an icy road, the car will still stop faster if it's pointing in the correct direction...?MarJay said:
Winter tyres do grip on ice better than summer tyres do. I had a first hand demonstration of this in Norway when I asked the guy driving me if winter tyres are any good. He said "Yes, watch this!" Not like driving on clear roads on summer tyres but we did actually come to a halt, which was a surprise.
I was out on sat early morning with winter tyres on icy untreated minor roads, where there was real ice (not frost I am talking about the stuff you'd fall over walking on) and 20 mph was too much. Not like driving on clear roads on summer tyres but we did actually come to a halt, which was a surprise.I have been using winter tyres on and off for 10 + years and have even tried studded tyres one year in scotland on our spare car and there is nothing you can do if you suddently find yourself on real ice/black ice/sheet ice.
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