RE: Lotus: we're keeping going
Discussion
The Crack Fox said:
I am really bored of Lotus doom-mongers, there seem to be many who won't be happy until Hethel shuts up shop, and we're all driving boring German stuff.
I'd just like someone to stop blowing cash on vanity projects - I.e. Paying to put the Lotus badge on cars built by other people, and get back to building some decent cars for road and track. Enough of the "lifestyle" crap - just do what Lotus has always been good at, but get the business right too.marshalla said:
I'd just like someone to stop blowing cash on vanity projects - I.e. Paying to put the Lotus badge on cars built by other people, and get back to building some decent cars for road and track. Enough of the "lifestyle" crap - just do what Lotus has always been good at, but get the business right too.
Same here. Pagani, Ariel and Morgan don't dick about announcing five-model ranges in the time TVR would have taken to do one. The Crack Fox said:
I'm told that Lotus have given their name, not life-savings, into these new motorsport ventures. A canny way of spreading the word without breaking the bank. I hate the lifestyle shyte, but it's not aimed at me, and it has no bearing on the products they make.
sounds like you have been told a pile of poo then.If Lotus want to keep up with the big players then they'll have to improve their product. There's no doubt, a Lotus, has the best handling out there but image and quality issues are a problem. The Elise and Exige are pure drivers cars and are stripped back, designed as primarily as toys; the newer 'upmarket' products, just arn't up to the competition and I think people are aware of this.
Gizmo! said:
marshalla said:
I'd just like someone to stop blowing cash on vanity projects - I.e. Paying to put the Lotus badge on cars built by other people, and get back to building some decent cars for road and track. Enough of the "lifestyle" crap - just do what Lotus has always been good at, but get the business right too.
Same here. Pagani, Ariel and Morgan don't dick about announcing five-model ranges in the time TVR would have taken to do one. Its clear you know (not just you) next to nothing about building brand. Lotus can't suddenly produce great new cars if everyone still thinks they make little plastic cars. They need to look like a strong, successful and prestigious brand before that; its expensive and complicated.
esada said:
I bought one of the first S1s. They were all s
t
Wow - that's funny. I bought one too and it was bloody amazing. tThey were so s
t that all the reviews at the time suggested so, yeah? And so st there built up a year+ waiting list? And I just remember everybody telling me what a st car it was back in the 90s.I kept mine for 7 years - it was so good I struggled to find anything better without spending £50k.
Good luck to Lotus I say. If they can start to turn out cars as great (albeit different) as the Elise S1 I am sure they'll do fine!
I can't wait to see some of the new cars - the Esprit and Elise in particular look amazing.
s
t? My arse. I hope they succeed, the advertising and motorsport activites are arguably needed to build brand recognition and also to re-enforce the racing heritage of years gone by, there getting a lot of exposure F1, while keeping the budget a fraction of that, if they actually owned a team
Yes they do need good cars, but they need brand awareness too, the new cars are going to be expensive relative to there recent offerings of the past 20 years, and they need to be both good, and the brand needs to have greater exposure amoung the general population, not just those who are into cars
It's certainly a risk, but there was no money in the 30k sports car market for a company of there size, something had to ultimately be done, and at the higher end of the market is were the margins are big enough to support a UK manufacturing base.
So far i think there doing things relatively well, all things considered, and are certainly generating publicity and headlines, with the F1 team etc there is no doubt lotus are more well known now than 2 years ago, and if the new cars and dealer network are solid, i think they can succeed
Yes they do need good cars, but they need brand awareness too, the new cars are going to be expensive relative to there recent offerings of the past 20 years, and they need to be both good, and the brand needs to have greater exposure amoung the general population, not just those who are into cars
It's certainly a risk, but there was no money in the 30k sports car market for a company of there size, something had to ultimately be done, and at the higher end of the market is were the margins are big enough to support a UK manufacturing base.
So far i think there doing things relatively well, all things considered, and are certainly generating publicity and headlines, with the F1 team etc there is no doubt lotus are more well known now than 2 years ago, and if the new cars and dealer network are solid, i think they can succeed
Frimley111R said:
Really? What exactly hasn't he delivered on??? And as for the 'not know for speaking straight' I am totally lost on WTF you are going on about.
Eh? So I guess you haven't been keeping up with what has been going on over the past 18 months at Group Lotus. Bahar has on a number of occasions seemingly deliberately misled the press.The most blatant was at a lunch for the motoring press when he told the assembled journalists that Group Lotus had bought a stake in the F1 team LRGP - which became headline news in a number of publications - and later turned out to be completely untrue.
Now that could be an honest mistake due to his English being crap.
Or it could be due to a shaky grasp of business concepts and not understanding the difference between buying into a F1 team and having the OPTION to buy into a F1 team.
Or...
KelWedge said:
Silly comment but,
New Cars on the way equals New and changed production lines, so things have to slow for a bit.
Not sure if production is going to slow down or not (ie will delivery dates be postponed or are any takeover implications already factored in?) - can someone clarify/confirm? New Cars on the way equals New and changed production lines, so things have to slow for a bit.
I really hope Lotus gets the backing it needs to continue.
Regardless of what Bahar says it is the product that needs to deliver and I think he knows that.
If I had the money I think an Evora would make a good second hand buy at current prices but to justify the new price they have to keep improving it as they have done with updates.
All I know is that Lotus still has a lot of good will (my Elise S1 111s was the best driver's car I've ever had) but as others have said they are trying a tricky move to a wider more prestigious level of the market.
Good luck to them I say.
Regardless of what Bahar says it is the product that needs to deliver and I think he knows that.
If I had the money I think an Evora would make a good second hand buy at current prices but to justify the new price they have to keep improving it as they have done with updates.
All I know is that Lotus still has a lot of good will (my Elise S1 111s was the best driver's car I've ever had) but as others have said they are trying a tricky move to a wider more prestigious level of the market.
Good luck to them I say.
esada said:
I bought one of the first S1s. They were all st, all leaked like sieves, and probably still do.
All manufacturers have Monday morning and Friday afternoon cars, but imo Lotus have been consistently st since about 1975.
I also owned a Giugaro Esprit Turbo briefly in about 1992. That was lovely when the gearchange linkage worked, but that wasn't very often.
Like I said, just my opinion.
Sadly I'm with him. Lotus make the most dynamically brilliant cars to drive you can buy. But my ownership experience with my Elise means I went Pork when I changed it and not Evora. I *LOVE* the Evora to drive. But when I drove it there were enough nagging doubts (ie it didn't fill me with confidence at all that they'd addressed their build/QC issues) that meant that I'll not be going down that route either. There's a great car there, I just want them to screw it together properly and out of quality parts.t, all leaked like sieves, and probably still do. All manufacturers have Monday morning and Friday afternoon cars, but imo Lotus have been consistently s
t since about 1975. I also owned a Giugaro Esprit Turbo briefly in about 1992. That was lovely when the gearchange linkage worked, but that wasn't very often.
Like I said, just my opinion.
Now if Lotus set up a chassis tuning division that would take my cash (as long as it wasn't too extortionate) to re-jig my Cayman so it rode/handled like an Evora. I'd be first in the queue...
EDIT: Conversely my brother has had an S1 for 12 years or so now and it's been reletively faultless. Seems some people are lucky and some aren't. It's a bloody expensive gamble though.
Frimley111R, this is an interesting statement from someone with knowledge of the automobile industry, "Morgan, famous for doing feck all", perhaps you should spend a couple of minutes and have a look at the Morgan website, eight different models, three/four different chassis, ( including a riveted and bonded aluminium variant ). A full order book, and no smoke and mirrors .
rejn said:
Wow - that's funny. I bought one too and it was bloody amazing.
They were so st that all the reviews at the time suggested so, yeah? And so st there built up a year+ waiting list? And I just remember everybody telling me what a st car it was back in the 90s.
I kept mine for 7 years - it was so good I struggled to find anything better without spending £50k.
Good luck to Lotus I say. If they can start to turn out cars as great (albeit different) as the Elise S1 I am sure they'll do fine!
I can't wait to see some of the new cars - the Esprit and Elise in particular look amazing.
st? My arse.
Im with this guy. It really pees me off that when you say Elise, people harp on about head gaskets and leaks, but mention Porsche and people gloss over the number of early 996s and Boxsters with the oil seal problem where the engine went pop and the V8 Cayenne that goes bang at 70k miles and is so dodgy that even a porsche specialist wont touch it (See latest EVO). They were so s
t that all the reviews at the time suggested so, yeah? And so st there built up a year+ waiting list? And I just remember everybody telling me what a st car it was back in the 90s.I kept mine for 7 years - it was so good I struggled to find anything better without spending £50k.
Good luck to Lotus I say. If they can start to turn out cars as great (albeit different) as the Elise S1 I am sure they'll do fine!
I can't wait to see some of the new cars - the Esprit and Elise in particular look amazing.
s
t? My arse. Theres no smoke without fire and I know historically lotus buying was a leap of faith, but equally it annoys me that german cars are put on a pedastol when I know for a fact that the likes of Porsche, Audi and VW have had major quality issues in recent years (PD TDI engine injector failure-anyone?)
Im a Porsche and a Lotus fan and wish Lotus well. i think personally they are misguided in trying to get into porsche and ferrari's market but I hope they succeed and wish more brits would give em a chance....
Edited by StevieB on Thursday 16th February 09:39
I really like the Lotus brand and what they stand for - absolutely not my kind of cars but that they are superb for some people and that is what counts. My only issue recently has been hugely ambitous model plans being announced which concerned me enormously. In other firms I have seen used (and helped create) hugely positive plans when the brown stuff was floating past the windows and we used it as a way of painting a picture of happiness to keep the usually very gullible press and un-knowing customers happy.
If you don't actually have the funding don't announce the plan should be the way - and maybe I'm just very very cynical. But knowing the difficulty that comes with product development especially when you add complexity to the vehicles - well look what happened to TVR. So I wish Lotus well - but stick with what you are good at guys - you lack so much of the funding that Ferrari etc have so please keep it simple!!
If you don't actually have the funding don't announce the plan should be the way - and maybe I'm just very very cynical. But knowing the difficulty that comes with product development especially when you add complexity to the vehicles - well look what happened to TVR. So I wish Lotus well - but stick with what you are good at guys - you lack so much of the funding that Ferrari etc have so please keep it simple!!
Just another thought - some people are saying that higher end cars have higher margins, well that doesn't really follow.
The margin is a reflection of demand and cost control - so Ferrari claim profitability today based on demand, but what we don't see is the large amount of work Fiat put in to get them there. If Ferrari had had to do all the development on the multitude of unseen engineering things of the last 30 years and pay for it - well the demand would still be there but the profit? Was it David Brown or Victor Gauntlet who when asked by a friend to sell a car for cost told the friend he'd have to pay an extra £10k then?
Moving upmarket in a brand philosophy is the work of decades, not a moment, so launching high end then expecting customers to pay full price is very hopeful. Ferrari get their margin by being so firmly linked to Fiat and incredible brand control over 50 years, Porsche gets its margins by being a much larger volume producer and a scary amount of their income came from the Cayenne which was underwritten by VW. So it is just as possible to make more "Margin" from low cost well sold smaller cars.
The margin is a reflection of demand and cost control - so Ferrari claim profitability today based on demand, but what we don't see is the large amount of work Fiat put in to get them there. If Ferrari had had to do all the development on the multitude of unseen engineering things of the last 30 years and pay for it - well the demand would still be there but the profit? Was it David Brown or Victor Gauntlet who when asked by a friend to sell a car for cost told the friend he'd have to pay an extra £10k then?
Moving upmarket in a brand philosophy is the work of decades, not a moment, so launching high end then expecting customers to pay full price is very hopeful. Ferrari get their margin by being so firmly linked to Fiat and incredible brand control over 50 years, Porsche gets its margins by being a much larger volume producer and a scary amount of their income came from the Cayenne which was underwritten by VW. So it is just as possible to make more "Margin" from low cost well sold smaller cars.
Frimley111R said:
Morgan, famous for doing feck all
Quite right, all they have done over the last few years is the Aeromax, The Supersports, the BMW engined, Ali Chassied traditional bodied Plus 8. The new 3 wheeler. the Lifeecar concept, the EVA GT. As well as the Mustang engined Roadster and lots of special trads.Your other comment "Its clear you know (not just you) next to nothing about building brand" is quite amusing under the circumstances.
juansolo said:
Sadly I'm with him. Lotus make the most dynamically brilliant cars to drive you can buy. But my ownership experience with my Elise means I went Pork when I changed it and not Evora. I *LOVE* the Evora to drive. But when I drove it there were enough nagging doubts (ie it didn't fill me with confidence at all that they'd addressed their build/QC issues) that meant that I'll not be going down that route either. There's a great car there, I just want them to screw it together properly and out of quality parts.
Now if Lotus set up a chassis tuning division that would take my cash (as long as it wasn't too extortionate) to re-jig my Cayman so it rode/handled like an Evora. I'd be first in the queue...
EDIT: Conversely my brother has had an S1 for 12 years or so now and it's been reletively faultless. Seems some people are lucky and some aren't. It's a bloody expensive gamble though.
Guess i was unlucky with my 08 Exige it was so unreliable and faulty we demanded a refund after several trips back to factory for so called repairs. Before that we had S2 Elise too but now im tainted, the Lotus company is on par with MG/Rover in every sense of failure looming. Now if Lotus set up a chassis tuning division that would take my cash (as long as it wasn't too extortionate) to re-jig my Cayman so it rode/handled like an Evora. I'd be first in the queue...
EDIT: Conversely my brother has had an S1 for 12 years or so now and it's been reletively faultless. Seems some people are lucky and some aren't. It's a bloody expensive gamble though.
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