BHP... how much is too much?
Discussion
skyrover said:
personally.... I believe 100bhp/ton should be a minimum on all future cars sold
I'd love to know your thinking as it sounds like total horses
tI've driven a landrover with 115Bhp with a total train wieght including the trailer of just over 5000Kg
23bhp/Ton
And it wasn't dangerous
leafspring said:
I'm thinking here of why they make cars that can't handle it... like the Vectra VXR
So you form all your opinions on Top Gear or do you have personal experience. I have driven the Vectra VXR many times and although I would never own one, or buy one (for lots of different reasons) I was impressed with its ground covering ability and complete lack of Clarksonesque epic FWD (2nd gear on full lock in the damp...) understeer-into-a-bush-ness.And in answer to your original question. I have 300bhp+ in an FWD saloon and still think I need more (and a LSD).
yep 100bhp/tonne to be "nippy", 200bhp/tonne to make a car fast, with most cars falling inbetween.
op - 2 tonnes is excessive for your average family wagon, 1.5 tonnes and 150bhp is what i'd guesstimate (from say the last decade)
i've owned cars with circa 50/60bhp tonne and found them perfectly fine for suburbia and the odd motorway jaunt (keeping out of the way of the movers and shakers in lane 3)
op - 2 tonnes is excessive for your average family wagon, 1.5 tonnes and 150bhp is what i'd guesstimate (from say the last decade)
i've owned cars with circa 50/60bhp tonne and found them perfectly fine for suburbia and the odd motorway jaunt (keeping out of the way of the movers and shakers in lane 3)
I must be the only one who enjoys driving low powered cars as much as high powered ones. 75bhp/t is perfectly adequate for day to day stuff, in fact the lower powered cars are often more fun to drive because you get to use more of their power more of the time. Anyone can make a powerful car move quickly, it takes real skill to do the same in a low powered car.
To answer the op, too much power would depend on drivetrain configuration, diffs etc. But assuming a typical fwd hatch I'd say anything over 220bhp is going to take
from the driving experience rather than add to it.
To answer the op, too much power would depend on drivetrain configuration, diffs etc. But assuming a typical fwd hatch I'd say anything over 220bhp is going to take
from the driving experience rather than add to it.
leafspring said:
..in your bog standard everyday hatch/estate/saloon/MPV type car.
How much power do you actually need day to day?
When I'm driving the family car, I'm only using half revs so around 70bhp for 1.4 tons is just fine => so 50bhp/ton.How much power do you actually need day to day?
My sports cars are ~240bhp/ton and I would make use of more if I had it.
I don't know how much is too much, but I reckon something like 250ish for a decent sized car is pretty adequate. I may say that only because that's what I'm getting out of my 9-5 Aero, but even with my objective glasses on I think it's pretty spot on. It's not setting the world on fire by any means, yet packs enough punch to a.) make driving in general quite stress free by virtue of its overtaking ability and b.) get me out of potentially dangerous situations quickly.
At one point I (pointlessly) had 3 cars, as follows:
~70 bhp/tonne
~150 bhp/tonne
~250 bhp/tonne
The 70 was a waste of time, it feels like it doesn't move and just gets louder. Useful for the supermarket run only.
The 150 is a really good amount, it allows you to go WOT for more of the time when you're having a fun drive, without ending up going too fast.
The 250 is a tremendous laugh, but you 'make progress' in a very different way, as you can't wring its neck for particularly long before you're going too fast for the road / conditions (not helped by broken up bumpy roads)
I think part of it is perception and what you're used to though, if I hadn't driven the 250 so much, I think the 150 would feel very quick, and possibly feel like 'too much', whereas because I'm used to more power, the 150 is a more exploitable tool as I'm never really ending up going as fast as in the 250...
You also don't work the gearbox as much when you have the extra power, which is both a good and bad thing
~70 bhp/tonne
~150 bhp/tonne
~250 bhp/tonne
The 70 was a waste of time, it feels like it doesn't move and just gets louder. Useful for the supermarket run only.
The 150 is a really good amount, it allows you to go WOT for more of the time when you're having a fun drive, without ending up going too fast.
The 250 is a tremendous laugh, but you 'make progress' in a very different way, as you can't wring its neck for particularly long before you're going too fast for the road / conditions (not helped by broken up bumpy roads)
I think part of it is perception and what you're used to though, if I hadn't driven the 250 so much, I think the 150 would feel very quick, and possibly feel like 'too much', whereas because I'm used to more power, the 150 is a more exploitable tool as I'm never really ending up going as fast as in the 250...
You also don't work the gearbox as much when you have the extra power, which is both a good and bad thing
Yay! Another bhp/tonne thread for the willy wavers to get stuck into! 
First, bhp/tonne isn't the be-all-end-all. A Mk1 Fabia vRS, on paper, only has 97 bhp/tonne (128 bhp, 1,315 kg), yet it has been road tested to sub-9 seconds on a road test on the 0-60 dash, will complete a 30-70 overtake in sub-8 seconds and will reach 127 mph. Is that really too slow for a daily? I think not.
My Puma has around 120 bhp / tonne, similar to an MX5, and if you drive it with intent, you'll still easily end up with points or a ban, it can still reach 100+ fairly smartly.
Some say that 200 bhp / tonne is the sweet spot for road driving? An MR2 Turbo Rev 3 as standard is 188 bhp / tonne (240 bhp and 1,270 kg), so that obviously falls short, despite doing 0-60 in 5.2 seconds and 162 mph
First, bhp/tonne isn't the be-all-end-all. A Mk1 Fabia vRS, on paper, only has 97 bhp/tonne (128 bhp, 1,315 kg), yet it has been road tested to sub-9 seconds on a road test on the 0-60 dash, will complete a 30-70 overtake in sub-8 seconds and will reach 127 mph. Is that really too slow for a daily? I think not.
My Puma has around 120 bhp / tonne, similar to an MX5, and if you drive it with intent, you'll still easily end up with points or a ban, it can still reach 100+ fairly smartly.
Some say that 200 bhp / tonne is the sweet spot for road driving? An MR2 Turbo Rev 3 as standard is 188 bhp / tonne (240 bhp and 1,270 kg), so that obviously falls short, despite doing 0-60 in 5.2 seconds and 162 mph
jimbobsimmonds said:
So you form all your opinions on Top Gear or do you have personal experience. I have driven the Vectra VXR many times and although I would never own one, or buy one (for lots of different reasons) I was impressed with its ground covering ability and complete lack of Clarksonesque epic FWD (2nd gear on full lock in the damp...) understeer-into-a-bush-ness.
And in answer to your original question. I have 300bhp+ in an FWD saloon and still think I need more (and a LSD).
Clarkson is a ham fisted baffoon.And in answer to your original question. I have 300bhp+ in an FWD saloon and still think I need more (and a LSD).
I have driven a Vectra VXR (admittedly it was 2nd hand and had 70k+miles under its belt).
On a flat dry road at anything over 1/4 throttle, from a rolling start or stationary... it would not accelerate in a straight line, it just torque steered in which ever direction it felt suited it (usually right)
Once you're out of town away from traffic I agree it was good at covering ground and brakes where excellent... still a Vectra though
You have to distinguish between too much - as Jim Steinman once wrote "Too much is never enough" and "Sufficient".
My 462hp Mustang is not too much but is excessive to my needs. My 150hp Fiesta ST is sufficient for nearly every occasion but if I was hauling round my ffamily for a lot of the time then I would probably want a bit more than our 2.0 Mondeo - maybe an XFR though something around 3.5 litres would also be sufficient.
My 462hp Mustang is not too much but is excessive to my needs. My 150hp Fiesta ST is sufficient for nearly every occasion but if I was hauling round my ffamily for a lot of the time then I would probably want a bit more than our 2.0 Mondeo - maybe an XFR though something around 3.5 litres would also be sufficient.
TameRacingDriver said:
bhp/tonne isn't the be-all-end-all.
Some say that 200 bhp / tonne is the sweet spot for road driving? An MR2 Turbo Rev 3 as standard is 188 bhp / tonne (240 bhp and 1,270 kg), so that obviously falls short, despite doing 0-60 in 5.2 seconds and 162 mph
I said that I thought about 200bhp/ton was possibly the 'sweet spot' for fast road driving. This may have something to do with my belief that forced induction is cheating. Some say that 200 bhp / tonne is the sweet spot for road driving? An MR2 Turbo Rev 3 as standard is 188 bhp / tonne (240 bhp and 1,270 kg), so that obviously falls short, despite doing 0-60 in 5.2 seconds and 162 mph
Sufficient is 100 bhp/ton. I've not owned anything seriously over that and of the cars I've driven, while they've certainly been fun, it's not been vital.
Below 100 bhp/ton there are everyday situations where I feel that the car has to work harder than I'm comfortable, and below 75 bhp/ton those situations are beyond the car's capabilities.
For my tastes, "too much" (i.e., performance you will never enjoy or release, and which might take away from the enjoyment as you have to be more careful than you otherwise might, is north of 200 bhp/ton at least. The most powerful car I've driven had 266 bhp/ton or thereabouts and it wasn't at all uncomfortable.
Below 100 bhp/ton there are everyday situations where I feel that the car has to work harder than I'm comfortable, and below 75 bhp/ton those situations are beyond the car's capabilities.
For my tastes, "too much" (i.e., performance you will never enjoy or release, and which might take away from the enjoyment as you have to be more careful than you otherwise might, is north of 200 bhp/ton at least. The most powerful car I've driven had 266 bhp/ton or thereabouts and it wasn't at all uncomfortable.
Edited by CYMR0 on Monday 5th August 11:54
As always depends where / how you drive.
For me (living near fast country roads) I find my MX5 with circa 200bhp/ton is perfect.
However my wife's Mazda6 Sport is adequate and has probably 130bhp/ton but sometimes doesn't have the power to safely overtake in places the MX5 can.
I did have a 420bhp RX7 and IMO that was too fast for the road - in that it couldn't get the power down and you could only use full power for a second or two before you were liable for a ban hence it seemed pointless to me.
No cars are "dangerously slow" but many are slow enough that you have to wait longer at junctions or sit in a queue of traffic as overtaking isn't an option. My 120bhp 2 ton Isuzu pulling my 4T trailer having a whopping 20 bhp/ton is very tedious.
(obviously it's torque is more relevant but I won't start that debate)
For me (living near fast country roads) I find my MX5 with circa 200bhp/ton is perfect.
However my wife's Mazda6 Sport is adequate and has probably 130bhp/ton but sometimes doesn't have the power to safely overtake in places the MX5 can.
I did have a 420bhp RX7 and IMO that was too fast for the road - in that it couldn't get the power down and you could only use full power for a second or two before you were liable for a ban hence it seemed pointless to me.
No cars are "dangerously slow" but many are slow enough that you have to wait longer at junctions or sit in a queue of traffic as overtaking isn't an option. My 120bhp 2 ton Isuzu pulling my 4T trailer having a whopping 20 bhp/ton is very tedious.
(obviously it's torque is more relevant but I won't start that debate)
Dave200 said:
You watch a lot of Top Gear, don't you...
You do realise that 90% of what that lot say is complete bks, right?
Yes I do and yes I know. You do realise that 90% of what that lot say is complete b
ks, right? its TG is entertainment not consumer advice program.When I want actual car advice I'll do what everyone else does... ask on here, read through the piss taking, find the genuine advice and ignore it
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