Why do people stick with BMW?
Discussion
RobM77 said:
On your other points I agree - they're not the most reliable of cars and the dealers are largely stuck up their own arses, but I simply had to comment on this. I've raced and driven single seaters, supercars, sports cars etc and have run a variety of interesting road cars (2-Eleven currently, two Caterhams, Elise etc), but despite that I can say that the humble old E90/E92 is an extremely nice and well balanced chassis. Mine (E90 320d) will corner neutrally without much provocation in wet and dry and if you want it'll transition smoothly into oversteer. Quite simply either there's something very wrong with the one you've driven or you're doing something very odd behind the wheel. Sure, the 'M Sport' suspension and big wheels do the car no favours at all, but the fundamental balance should be there in spades. ETA: It should feel very similar to the other BMWs you've driven; I've tried the ones you've listed apart from the M5 and they handle very similarly to the 320d (unsurprisingly!).
M5's were e39, e60 (What an engine!) and the F10. The E39 was my favorite chassis and the engine fitted the bull very well. coverd a fair few miles in that thing too.
Maybe theres something wrong with mine then. 330d was E91. I drove many 320d's but they were E91 and E90 (E90's handled great!) and the 335i was actually e93 so felt like the shell was twisting round corners.
its just the front end. Its good for sweeping bends when pressing on but adverse camber or something remotely twisty it goes down the s
tter. so much body roll too. I hate how the suspension reacts to bumps too - or doesnt.I cant exactly take it into BMW either and ask them to take a look at the suspension as I know they wouldnt give two s
ts. keegs111 said:
I visit Germany quite often and today I asked a taxi driver why ALL German taxis, without exception, are Mercedes Benz. The answer was that BMW are rubbish, completely worn out after 300k KM and have poor reliability couples with very expensive maintenance. The car I was in was an S class with 600k km on the clock, never had any gearbox or engine issues and felt as tight as the day it was made.
Out of interest, which era of S-Class was it?W220 or W221?
kambites said:
GC8 said:
kambites said:
motor mad said:
I always thought the engines and gear boxes on the Mercedes were bullet proof; it was the rust and trim build quality that let them down. Maybe that's been sorted out in more recent years?
Mercedes seem to have solved the rust issues.
My old 325 E36 is very well built and reliable, feels very solid. But my newer E92 doesnt feel quite a tough in terms of reliability, I have not had it long and its already needed a load of poor quality (oem) vacuum hoses replaced due to going brittle and causing vacuum leaks. I replaced with better quality hose. This was causing the car to go into limp mode.
That said, I don't regret buying it.
That said, I don't regret buying it.
Trtj said:
Non-Amg Mercs I don't think can be called exciting. Standard beemers up till about 2006 can
Really? You'd call en E46 320d "exciting"? Each to their own I suppose, but that's about the opposite of the word I'd use to describe it... "good", yes, but duller than a particularly dull dull thing. kambites said:
Really? You'd call en E46 320d "exciting"? Each to their own I suppose, but that's about the opposite of the word I'd use to describe it... "good", yes, but duller than a particularly dull dull thing.
Yes, compared to a lot of other chassis out there at the time. I have driven all the e46 range bar the 328i, and on a twisty road power aside yes the handling is funI would say that it was because people may be a little obsessed with image.
I bought my e46 330d because for what I needed (something fairly economical, fairly comfortable, estate, preferably rwd), it was the most fun car to drive I could think of. As a PHer, I put the fun to drive bit above ultimate economy, comfort, etc. I doubt more than 10% of the general population really care about handling, steering feel, and would even know which wheels were driven, yet they choose to buy BMWs. I can only assume that this is because image is their top priority, because, at least from my experience with one of the e46's rivals (S60), it is left seriously lacking in more day to day tangible benefits that you notice such as seat comfort, performance/mpg ratio, stereo quality, and dash ergonomics.
So as somebody who is interested in driving, for me it is worth that trade off, but people who see driving as a means to get from a to b, my opinion is that they are missing out on things they may benefit from just to get that badge on the bonnet. But, hey, people have choices, and if they are happy with them so be it
In regards to quality, the perception they are particularly good quality is wide of the mark. When I bought my e46 last year, I looked at about 10 BMWs (e46 and e39) ranging from 2002 to 2004 and everyone single one bar mine had rust on it somewhere. That is an absolute joke for this day and age. I had a 10 year old Seicento as a beater a couple of years ago, and it didn't have a spot of rust on it anywhere. The italian car industry got a reputation in the 70s and 80s for rust that did them no favours at all, yet people seem to turn a blind eye to all the Mercs and BMs from the late 90s / early 00s that seem to be rusting away...
I bought my e46 330d because for what I needed (something fairly economical, fairly comfortable, estate, preferably rwd), it was the most fun car to drive I could think of. As a PHer, I put the fun to drive bit above ultimate economy, comfort, etc. I doubt more than 10% of the general population really care about handling, steering feel, and would even know which wheels were driven, yet they choose to buy BMWs. I can only assume that this is because image is their top priority, because, at least from my experience with one of the e46's rivals (S60), it is left seriously lacking in more day to day tangible benefits that you notice such as seat comfort, performance/mpg ratio, stereo quality, and dash ergonomics.
So as somebody who is interested in driving, for me it is worth that trade off, but people who see driving as a means to get from a to b, my opinion is that they are missing out on things they may benefit from just to get that badge on the bonnet. But, hey, people have choices, and if they are happy with them so be it
In regards to quality, the perception they are particularly good quality is wide of the mark. When I bought my e46 last year, I looked at about 10 BMWs (e46 and e39) ranging from 2002 to 2004 and everyone single one bar mine had rust on it somewhere. That is an absolute joke for this day and age. I had a 10 year old Seicento as a beater a couple of years ago, and it didn't have a spot of rust on it anywhere. The italian car industry got a reputation in the 70s and 80s for rust that did them no favours at all, yet people seem to turn a blind eye to all the Mercs and BMs from the late 90s / early 00s that seem to be rusting away...
Trtj said:
kambites said:
Really? You'd call en E46 320d "exciting"? Each to their own I suppose, but that's about the opposite of the word I'd use to describe it... "good", yes, but duller than a particularly dull dull thing.
Yes, compared to a lot of other chassis out there at the time. I have driven all the e46 range bar the 328i, and on a twisty road power aside yes the handling is funFun.
If you strip out the halo performance models for both, what you essentially have is Mercedes builds commercial vehicles and BMW builds personal transport vehicles.
If you want to deliver something or to be delivered yourself then you use a Mercedes product (truck, van, minicab), if you want to transport yourself then you choose a BMW product (dull diesel). A Merc is something that you order online or over the phone to come to your house, a BMW is something that you keep on standby at your house.
As for BMW quality, I've owned a 540 and a 130. The 540 was a solid car that I don't recall having any issues with but then I never had any issues with a Peugeot 406D but the former was a more pleasant environment to be in and drove very well. The 130 was bought as the wife needed a hatchback and this car was a compromise as it gave me legroom in the fron by not being a transverse engine and enough performance to not be bored. The interior finish is no better than many other manufacturers but mechanically I've had no issues with it. I don't think either were any better than any of their comparable rivals at the time of purchase they just had key things which were preferential such as power outputs or space etc. I suspect that their Japanese counterparts were mechanically more durable in reality.
If you strip out the halo performance models for both, what you essentially have is Mercedes builds commercial vehicles and BMW builds personal transport vehicles.
If you want to deliver something or to be delivered yourself then you use a Mercedes product (truck, van, minicab), if you want to transport yourself then you choose a BMW product (dull diesel). A Merc is something that you order online or over the phone to come to your house, a BMW is something that you keep on standby at your house.
As for BMW quality, I've owned a 540 and a 130. The 540 was a solid car that I don't recall having any issues with but then I never had any issues with a Peugeot 406D but the former was a more pleasant environment to be in and drove very well. The 130 was bought as the wife needed a hatchback and this car was a compromise as it gave me legroom in the fron by not being a transverse engine and enough performance to not be bored. The interior finish is no better than many other manufacturers but mechanically I've had no issues with it. I don't think either were any better than any of their comparable rivals at the time of purchase they just had key things which were preferential such as power outputs or space etc. I suspect that their Japanese counterparts were mechanically more durable in reality.
Patrick Bateman said:
There will be someone, somewhere saying the same about Mercedes or Audi or whoever- down to their own experiences.
Dealers can no doubt vary massively.
I used to work for an Audi dealership, and then for a BMW dealership.Dealers can no doubt vary massively.
Two things learned from the experience:
1) The cars: Audis just don't feel as good to drive as BMWs, and for all the problems people have with BMWs I saw far worse across a higher percentage of cars at Audi. I don't think they age as well either.
2) I would NEVER like to be an Audi customer. We had standing instructions to screw every penny we could out of every single person (verabatim) who came through our service department.
I can't speak for Merc having very little experience with them - although my former boss had two SLKs, a Mk1 and then a Mk2 AMG 55 and while he loved them both to bits and had only great things to say about the dealership experience he did nothing but b
h about how unreliable they were and how often he had to go to said dealership to be anally brutalised...in the financial sense. I had a C class estate for a day once as a loan car, it was brand new and lovely. But I was spat at by a woman I stopped for at a pedestrian crossing. I think I'd rather live with the w
ker gestures that come with having a BMW - you don't have to wash them off 
kambites said:
Trtj said:
kambites said:
Really? You'd call en E46 320d "exciting"? Each to their own I suppose, but that's about the opposite of the word I'd use to describe it... "good", yes, but duller than a particularly dull dull thing.
Yes, compared to a lot of other chassis out there at the time. I have driven all the e46 range bar the 328i, and on a twisty road power aside yes the handling is funMine's an E90 320d and yes, the engine's a rattly noisy smelly thing and it's slow, but the handling's lovely. I spend 80% of my time on the motorway, where power's irrelevant, and the other 20% of my time on B roads where I'm cornering at 45-50mph and going down the straights at 60mph, so it's hardly worth having more than 170bhp just to go from 50 to 60 every so often.
Gazunder said:
keegs111 said:
I visit Germany quite often and today I asked a taxi driver why ALL German taxis, without exception, are Mercedes Benz. The answer was that BMW are rubbish, completely worn out after 300k KM and have poor reliability couples with very expensive maintenance. The car I was in was an S class with 600k km on the clock, never had any gearbox or engine issues and felt as tight as the day it was made.
Out of interest, which era of S-Class was it?W220 or W221?
I have had loads of both, and to be honest I hear of more issue with Mercedes 7G 'box than BMWs ZF 'box.
Search for 'mercedes valve body' and you will see!
New E Class is crap quality imho, I had a 10 plate 350 and it was not a patch on the 56 plate 320 W211 I had before it, which was only just a bit better built than the 535d I had before that.
In 1994 I bought my first house and paid £36,000, it was a terrace in the right area of the city, my Dad bought an E320 that year and paid £37,000 for it, more than my house.
Today that house is worth around £190,000, you can buy a new E Class with dab, nav, xenons, leather and auto 'box for £31,000 with a bit of discount.
And people wonder why the build is not as good?
They build them cheap so they can survive.
I too hark back to the good old days and sit wishing we still had proper quality products to buy, proper British quality products like Austin Rover.
Search for 'mercedes valve body' and you will see!
New E Class is crap quality imho, I had a 10 plate 350 and it was not a patch on the 56 plate 320 W211 I had before it, which was only just a bit better built than the 535d I had before that.
In 1994 I bought my first house and paid £36,000, it was a terrace in the right area of the city, my Dad bought an E320 that year and paid £37,000 for it, more than my house.
Today that house is worth around £190,000, you can buy a new E Class with dab, nav, xenons, leather and auto 'box for £31,000 with a bit of discount.
And people wonder why the build is not as good?
They build them cheap so they can survive.
I too hark back to the good old days and sit wishing we still had proper quality products to buy, proper British quality products like Austin Rover.
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