The car security ideas thread
Discussion
Terminator X said:
saaby93 said:
nless youre mugged for your PIN!
What's wrong with a key?
They're nicking cars by re-coding a key and just driving off! Pin entry would stop that. Very few tea leaves will enter the house imho, they'll just fWhat's wrong with a key?
k off somewhere easier.TX.
beko1987 said:
Terminator X said:
saaby93 said:
Unless youre mugged for your PIN!
What's wrong with a key?
They're nicking cars by re-coding a key and just driving off! Pin entry would stop that. Very few tea leaves will enter the house imho, they'll just fWhat's wrong with a key?
k off somewhere easier.TX.
The problem was that as well as your access PIN code (which you gave to the garage for them to distribute on their paper work) wasn't there also a service PIN code 1111 which everyone soon found out about?
Forgetful owners stuck a postit note with the PIN near the pad
The idea didnt last long
ETA how to disable the PIN pad
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t...
HJ said:
Trust you will be informing the insurance company after you have done this. Alternatively let us have your reg and we will come and nick it.
Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 17th September 10:15
I still don't understand what's wrong with a few pence worth of hidden inline switch from Maplins fitted into the 12v supply to the fuel pump.
No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
Davie said:
I still don't understand what's wrong with a few pence worth of hidden inline switch from Maplins fitted into the 12v supply to the fuel pump.
No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
Definitely.No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
Though any alarm fitted won't sound if someone breaks a window to nick your sat nav/CDs/etc.
If i had a flash car i'd have it in the garage, battery removed, possibly with a wheel or two removed also.
dapearson said:
Definitely.
Though any alarm fitted won't sound if someone breaks a window to nick your sat nav/CDs/etc.
If i had a flash car i'd have it in the garage, battery removed, possibly with a wheel or two removed also.
Seems that won't work as VAG cars prime the fuel system when the drivers door is opened (genuis!) and fitting a switch would throw up fault codes. Sad fact is, back in the old days cars were easy to steal... the 90's / 00's seem to have created the most effective solutions and now, with our rediculous desire to have key less entry and so on plus our reliance on computer based systems, cars are getting easier to steal again. Though any alarm fitted won't sound if someone breaks a window to nick your sat nav/CDs/etc.
If i had a flash car i'd have it in the garage, battery removed, possibly with a wheel or two removed also.
I also don't understand why cars don't have to be connected to the manufacturer to code a key... ie you pop a dongle in the OBDII posrt, this connects the car to the interweb and in turn directly to the tech department at the manufacturer, obviously using dealer logins and during office hours when Hans can confirm the source is legitmate. Assorted technical things outwith my ability happen and only then can a virgin key be coded to the car. IT evades me but you get the gist.
I'm all for the 'keep it simple' approach. Make a car unappealing to a theif, they'll go elsewhere. In theory
Davie said:
Seems that won't work as VAG cars prime the fuel system when the drivers door is opened (genuis!) and fitting a switch would throw up fault codes. Sad fact is, back in the old days cars were easy to steal... the 90's / 00's seem to have created the most effective solutions and now, with our rediculous desire to have key less entry and so on plus our reliance on computer based systems, cars are getting easier to steal again.
I also don't understand why cars don't have to be connected to the manufacturer to code a key... ie you pop a dongle in the OBDII posrt, this connects the car to the interweb and in turn directly to the tech department at the manufacturer, obviously using dealer logins and during office hours when Hans can confirm the source is legitmate. Assorted technical things outwith my ability happen and only then can a virgin key be coded to the car. IT evades me but you get the gist.
I'm all for the 'keep it simple' approach. Make a car unappealing to a theif, they'll go elsewhere. In
theory
On the keep it simple approach... if you can be arsed, and for a £70k RS4, trust me... I could and would be arsed... but it only takes seconds to disconnect the crankshaft sensor plug. There's a few ways to disable a car. Hidden switches in various 12v feeds or ignition lives may not be high tec and won't stop somebody getting into the car, but they'll certainly stop it starting. I also don't understand why cars don't have to be connected to the manufacturer to code a key... ie you pop a dongle in the OBDII posrt, this connects the car to the interweb and in turn directly to the tech department at the manufacturer, obviously using dealer logins and during office hours when Hans can confirm the source is legitmate. Assorted technical things outwith my ability happen and only then can a virgin key be coded to the car. IT evades me but you get the gist.
I'm all for the 'keep it simple' approach. Make a car unappealing to a theif, they'll go elsewhere. In
theory
Your man with the RS4... pop a switch in the feed for some critical sensor or something (again, not to hot on the inner workings of an RS4) and once scrotes had buggered about coding keys and the car still wouldn't start, at what stage would they accept their time exposed to danger is too high and bugger off. Even if they took the key using force, you coudl still stand there and say "Well done d
head, now you've broken it" as they struggle to get it to start. Not saying it's the answer, but hell anything that makes their job that wee bit harder could be enough to make them look elsewhere or create enough of a delay for the feds to arrive or your to call Dave and Craige and ask them to nip round for some practice with that 9 iron you have by the door.
currybum said:
Despite the speed at which the “key coding” thefts happen, it’s not an easy task and requires some expensive equipment, planning and a set up process of getting the car stripped or crated out of the country. This sort of thing isn’t done by petty criminals but by organised, well-funded and dangerous gangs.
There will always be a market for high end stolen cars, and always be money in it for criminal gangs. If you can’t afford to keep it in a controlled lock up they will always find a way of getting the car if they want it, is not with the key they will drag it on to a flatbed…if not the flat bed they will get the key from you by either taking from your house or mugging you in the street.
It’s just a car, its insured, it’s not worth risking yourself or family for….personally I want my cars difficult to take but impossible to take without my help.
Agreed. Assuming you mean " NOT impossible to take without my help"? There will always be a market for high end stolen cars, and always be money in it for criminal gangs. If you can’t afford to keep it in a controlled lock up they will always find a way of getting the car if they want it, is not with the key they will drag it on to a flatbed…if not the flat bed they will get the key from you by either taking from your house or mugging you in the street.
It’s just a car, its insured, it’s not worth risking yourself or family for….personally I want my cars difficult to take but impossible to take without my help.
AmitG said:
I'll give this one a go...
Obviously the idea needs to be not just making it difficult for scrotes to drive away, but deterring them from even trying.
Maybe fingerprint recognition is the way forward. It's been around for years (in fact I think the Lexus LS or Audi A8 might have had it at one point) and now that Apple have done it, it will probably go mainstream.
You would need a fingerprint to get into the car (sensor on door handle), and also to start the car (the button to start the car is also a sensor), and also to lock the car (sensor on door handle). No matching print = operation denied.
The car would have to let you register multiple prints so that family etc. can drive. Updating the list of allowable fingerprints would require a password (2 factor authentication) which you would store at home (like the radio code).
There would need to be a "valet mode" so that e.g. a servicing garage can drive it. But the garage wouldn't be able to code any more prints since they don't have the password.
When you sell the car, you would put it into "valet mode" and give the new owner the password. They can then delete the old prints and store their own. That would be the equivalent of handing the keys over. There is no danger of the car ending up locked and inaccessible, because locking it requires a fingerprint.
The interesting bit is that there would be no physical key or transponder, so the EU rules on allowing indies to program additional keys through the OBD2 port or whatever, would be completely irrelevant. And because there is no transponder, there is no radio code to intercept. Nobody could allow entry except you.
And because there is no key, there is nothing for anyone to steal. They could try and get the password, but it's useless without a matching fingerprint.
There are obvious disadvantages. If you are away, only registered users can move the car. You cannot open the car while wearing gloves. If you lose your finger while the car is locked, you obviously have a problem. Maybe you code 2 fingers just in case
You cannot remote-unlock the car from a distance since there is no fob. You have to put your hand on the door.
If someone is determined enough they will always find a way. They can load the car on a flatbed and drive off. They can force you to open the car at knifepoint. But this way, you eliminate the scenario where someone either hacks the immobilisation or breaks in and codes a new key, which these days seem to be the most common.
Thoughts...
While I think this is a decent idea in theroy can't help thinking people might lose digits from this security measure. Obviously the idea needs to be not just making it difficult for scrotes to drive away, but deterring them from even trying.
Maybe fingerprint recognition is the way forward. It's been around for years (in fact I think the Lexus LS or Audi A8 might have had it at one point) and now that Apple have done it, it will probably go mainstream.
You would need a fingerprint to get into the car (sensor on door handle), and also to start the car (the button to start the car is also a sensor), and also to lock the car (sensor on door handle). No matching print = operation denied.
The car would have to let you register multiple prints so that family etc. can drive. Updating the list of allowable fingerprints would require a password (2 factor authentication) which you would store at home (like the radio code).
There would need to be a "valet mode" so that e.g. a servicing garage can drive it. But the garage wouldn't be able to code any more prints since they don't have the password.
When you sell the car, you would put it into "valet mode" and give the new owner the password. They can then delete the old prints and store their own. That would be the equivalent of handing the keys over. There is no danger of the car ending up locked and inaccessible, because locking it requires a fingerprint.
The interesting bit is that there would be no physical key or transponder, so the EU rules on allowing indies to program additional keys through the OBD2 port or whatever, would be completely irrelevant. And because there is no transponder, there is no radio code to intercept. Nobody could allow entry except you.
And because there is no key, there is nothing for anyone to steal. They could try and get the password, but it's useless without a matching fingerprint.
There are obvious disadvantages. If you are away, only registered users can move the car. You cannot open the car while wearing gloves. If you lose your finger while the car is locked, you obviously have a problem. Maybe you code 2 fingers just in case
You cannot remote-unlock the car from a distance since there is no fob. You have to put your hand on the door.If someone is determined enough they will always find a way. They can load the car on a flatbed and drive off. They can force you to open the car at knifepoint. But this way, you eliminate the scenario where someone either hacks the immobilisation or breaks in and codes a new key, which these days seem to be the most common.
Thoughts...
V8RX7 said:
Monty Python said:
I also thought of a short-range radio transmitter in the car and a base station in the house. If the car moves beyond signal range, then the car is immobilized (e.g. by shutting down the fuel system and so on) and the base station triggers an alarm.
UK law prevents you immobilizing a moving vehicle.The worry being that the steering / brakes weight up and they may crash.
I have cars that are set up to do this as do many in S Africa - it allows the thief to drive away but stops the car within a mile.
I have also suffered power and brake failures whilst driving and never crashed.
UK law is far too soft - we've had these debates before - the majority want the death penalty (albeit not for car crime) but MPs think they know better.
CoolHands said:
that's quite a good idea - like those little usb-type pen things IT network people use? Like bank things. They keep clicking round and there's some way of using the right code at a certain point in time, I think. IT people will know what I'm on about.
I have heard that Volvo have been planning this for a while now,apparently it will require a different code to access every different module on the vehicle.This measure is not to deter thieves,it`s to stop you fixing your car without taking it to them!
Davie said:
On the keep it simple approach... if you can be arsed, and for a £70k RS4, trust me... I could and would be arsed... but it only takes seconds to disconnect the crankshaft sensor plug. There's a few ways to disable a car. Hidden switches in various 12v feeds or ignition lives may not be high tec and won't stop somebody getting into the car, but they'll certainly stop it starting.
Your man with the RS4... pop a switch in the feed for some critical sensor or something (again, not to hot on the inner workings of an RS4) and once scrotes had buggered about coding keys and the car still wouldn't start, at what stage would they accept their time exposed to danger is too high and bugger off. Even if they took the key using force, you coudl still stand there and say "Well done dhead, now you've broken it" as they struggle to get it to start.
Not saying it's the answer, but hell anything that makes their job that wee bit harder could be enough to make them look elsewhere or create enough of a delay for the feds to arrive or your to call Dave and Craige and ask them to nip round for some practice with that 9 iron you have by the door.
ThisYour man with the RS4... pop a switch in the feed for some critical sensor or something (again, not to hot on the inner workings of an RS4) and once scrotes had buggered about coding keys and the car still wouldn't start, at what stage would they accept their time exposed to danger is too high and bugger off. Even if they took the key using force, you coudl still stand there and say "Well done d
head, now you've broken it" as they struggle to get it to start. Not saying it's the answer, but hell anything that makes their job that wee bit harder could be enough to make them look elsewhere or create enough of a delay for the feds to arrive or your to call Dave and Craige and ask them to nip round for some practice with that 9 iron you have by the door.
I had it fitted in my MGTF, someone tried to steal it, couldnt start it, ended up pushing it for 100 yards then gave up. Thats where I found it the next morning. Managed to get some decent prints off it too as the car was left behind.
Now my Lotus Esprit, Porsche 911 and TVR Chimaera all have a hidden ignition switch.
Davie said:
I still don't understand what's wrong with a few pence worth of hidden inline switch from Maplins fitted into the 12v supply to the fuel pump.
No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
This is the sort of thing we had on our souped up No power to pump = no fuel = no go.
Unless you lift it or drag it and well if that's the case then you're not dealing with the local scrotes anymore.
Fiestas, Escorts and Minis back in the 80s.Just get one of those big rally isolator switches with the big plastic key and house it somewhere (passenger footwell or whatever). A thief isn't going to be carrying around a massive lump of cable and muck about trying to bypass that in the dark, not with all the gubbins, battery in boot etc.
Simple and effective.
My car isn't keyless go, but it's a year old Merc. I'm not sure what the theft situation with these is, but I'm tempted to go under the footwell, remove the trim and remove the ODBC plug and tuck it out of the way somewhere.
I was just going to leave it at that, but I've had an idea: Next I'd get an ODBC plug from a scrapyard and then wire it to the battery, randomly wiring the pins to +ve and -ve, thus ensuring that when some scrote turns up and plugs his hooky ECU scanner or whatever in to your cars pretend ODBC socket to pinch it, that his gadget gets fried.
Obviously you'd have to notify a garage doing any work about this "modification" before you wreck their billion quid diagnostic machine.
JimmyTheHand said:
Legalise the car anti theft in the advert seen on Robocop 2 
I think the car manufacturers need to start understanding computer security - because most new cars are becoming a computer with an engine and wheels (trouble is most IT companies struggle with IT security)
My thoughts also. I think the car manufacturers need to start understanding computer security - because most new cars are becoming a computer with an engine and wheels (trouble is most IT companies struggle with IT security)
I'd buy that for a dollar.
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