Fines based on wealth - do Finland have it right or wrong?

[Matt UK]

Type R Tom said:

Rawwr said:

Insurance companies work on risk and you become an increased risk. Rocket surgery.

I know, but why 5 years when they stay on your licence for 4? I'm sure you can use statistics to cover any argument you like. Why not 10 years? 20? The rest of your driving life?

Oh, as online / electronic data storage and transfer matures and more years are captured, they will, they will.

[My Evil Twin]

Im a resident here in Finland and have been for over a decade.
Its a topic I have with some of the guys around here... some a pro, some not..

Some things are NOT the same as back in the UK..
Society if flatter here than UK. Historically Society has wanted all to be treated the same.
The principle is that it should have the same impact to you whatever your financial standing..
There are no 'points' system as such. But repeat offenders can get 'called into have a chat with a Snr cop', and if offending continues license can be withdrawn.
The exception being crazy speed means fine and loose your license in one go. (fines are less in this case).
Min fine is (was) about 100ukp if unemployed, student etc..

Fines are calculated on last years tax returns, but if you are earning less this year you will get it adjusted in appeal.
So if this guy sold his company last year n retired, he will win on appeal as his income this year is only interest and investments.
Adjusted also for marital status, house loans and dependents.

Iv been stung with the odd fine.. you just have to MTFU n get on with it

In balance i think its generally a good thing, (this is 100% turnaround since I moved here).
You think, how likely are you to speed in a 30 zone if getting caught doing 45 means a fine of *about* 25-30% of your monthly wage. (after tax) (married, house loan no kids)

Yea, I speed but I have a slush fund to finance this. I have a little cash in the bank ring-fenced JUST for this eventuality.

[My Evil Twin]

Pixelpeep said:

great idea.

If i was late for work i wouldn't dream of using a bus lane to get me there quicker because £80 would be a majority of my days salary.

If i was a footballer, i would routinely use bus lanes, because £80 wouldn't even notice.

You can't enforce a law without a sense of consequence for breaking it.

If a footballer was fined £10,000 for traveling in a bus lane (half his daily £20,000 pay) it might have more of an impact on them doing it again!

This is the crux of the idea they are trying to do over here in Finland..
but I dont know if fines for driving in the bus lane are worked the same way as speed...
parking fines are fixed penalty.

[otolith]

Type R Tom said:

I know, but why 5 years when they stay on your licence for 4? I'm sure you can use statistics to cover any argument you like. Why not 10 years? 20? The rest of your driving life?

Because their experience is that it doesn't make a useful difference to their calculation of expected claims cost beyond that point?

[kambites]

If you view punishments as either a punishment or a means of deterrent, they have to have an element of means testing, IMO. An £x fine is not the same level of deterrent or punishment for everyone.

How you do the means testing, is another matter.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 15th October 14:04

[My Evil Twin]

Matt UK said:

I admit to not reading the link - but I agree then - use points to curtail the behaviour, fines should just be admin. Anything else is just state greed / taxation under a different name.

I also thought this.. but think about it this way.
(1)
you get stopped for speeding in UK:
Cop ask gives you 3 points and asks for £60.
You think about the 3 points but at the £60 as you are a footballer n your wife spends more than that on coffee.
or
You think about the 3 points and at the £60 as you are a shelf filler at Asda n thats 1 shifts wage.

then....
(2)
you get stopped for speeding in UK:
Cop ask gives you 3 points and asks for 5% your salary.
You think about the 3 points and at the £260,000 as you are a footballer earning 100k/week.
or
You think about the 3 points and at the £780 ** as you are a shelf filler.

Does the footballer in example (1) not get half a punishment?
In (2) are not both punishments the same to each person. (from their perspective)

• ** As a matter of fact, the shelf filler would get a much smaller fine as the cost of living is not zero and the fines are supposed to be on your 'available' income.

Edited by My Evil Twin on Tuesday 15th October 14:06

[Type R Tom]

My Evil Twin said:

I also thought this.. but think about it this way.
(1)
you get stopped for speeding in UK:
Cop ask gives you 3 points and asks for £60.
You think about the 3 points but at the £60 as you are a footballer n your wife spends more than that on coffee.
or
You think about the 3 points and at the £60 as you are a shelf filler at Asda n thats 1 shifts wage.

then....
(2)
you get stopped for speeding in UK:
Cop ask gives you 3 points and asks for 5% your salary.
You think about the 3 points and at the £260,000 as you are a footballer earning 100k/week.
or
You think about the 3 points and at the £780 as you are a shelf filler.

Does the footballer in example (1) not get half a punishment?
In (2) are not both punishments the same to each person. (from their perspective) **

• As a matter of fact, the shelf filler would get a much smaller fine as the cost of living is not zero and the fines are supposed to be on your 'available' income.

Sounds good, my only concern would be the clever accountants out there that show that poor footballer only has £50 a week available!

[Finlandese]

The Finnish system (to my best recollection - only one fine in 22 years of driving..):

No points system. However, three speeding tickets in one year results in loss of licence for a minimum of a month. Four speeding tickets in two years has the same result. Tickets have no effect to you insurence premiums, accidents do.

6-10 km/h over the limit results in a written warning
11-20 km/h over the limit results in a small fixed fine (not income related)
+21 km/h over the limit results in a take home pay based fine (which can lead to insane amounts)
+30 km/h over the limit can lead to a loss of licence
+40 km/h over the limit and you will lose your licence on the spot (Unless you are Sebastian Loeb, and the loss of licence would´ve lead to a retirement from rally Finland..)

Some people I know... drive pretty much 20 km/h or less over the limit all the time (except in urban areas). If you keep your eyes open (and don´t live in Espoo) you should be fine and (almost) never get a ticket.

The income based fine is designed to f**k the upper middle class, as most of the really high earners have to means to alter their declared income retroactively (if they so desire), so that what they´ll end up paying after an appeal will be the same as you were a student..

P.s. If you are a visiting foreigner, you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as you keep it below +40 km/h over the limit. If you get an income based fine, they´ll just ask your income, and will believe anything you say..

Edited by Finlandese on Tuesday 15th October 14:17

Edited by Finlandese on Tuesday 15th October 14:17

Edited by Finlandese on Tuesday 15th October 14:19

Edited by Finlandese on Tuesday 15th October 14:44

[PoleDriver]

Finlandese said:

If you keep your eyes open (and don´t live in Espoo) you should be fine and (almost) never get a ticket.

Do the Finnish police have something against Nokia employees then?

[Finlandese]

PoleDriver said:

Finlandese said:

If you keep your eyes open (and don´t live in Espoo) you should be fine and (almost) never get a ticket.

Do the Finnish police have something against Nokia employees then?

Yes.

[PoleDriver]

Finlandese said:

PoleDriver said:

Finlandese said:

If you keep your eyes open (and don´t live in Espoo) you should be fine and (almost) never get a ticket.

Do the Finnish police have something against Nokia employees then?

Yes.

I used to visit a company near them, we would use their canteen at lunchtimes. They seemed OK, apart from when my Sony/Ericsson phone rang with the 'Nokia crashing' ringtone!

[grumbledoak]

There is no way to make a fines system 'fair'. It will be a headline gabbing envy tax on the rich one day, then a meaningless 1p per week to a dole bludger, and sometimes somewhere in the middle. At no point will it be 'fair'.

They aren't much of a deterrent, either.

[Finlandese]

PoleDriver said:

Finlandese said:

PoleDriver said:

Finlandese said:

If you keep your eyes open (and don´t live in Espoo) you should be fine and (almost) never get a ticket.

Do the Finnish police have something against Nokia employees then?

Yes.

I used to visit a company near them, we would use their canteen at lunchtimes. They seemed OK, apart from when my Sony/Ericsson phone rang with the 'Nokia crashing' ringtone!

Well, our national motto is: "Who the f''k do you think you are?", so the preception of Nokia employees during their heyday did not work too well with that.. On a more serious note. No city in Finland has as high reliance on cars as primary transport as Espoo. That combined with a high average incomes result in a very happy hunting ground mr. Radargun. As the fines are BUDGETED, the Man gots to get paid..

[mrmr96]

grumbledoak said:

There is no way to make a fines system 'fair'. It will be a headline gabbing envy tax on the rich one day, then a meaningless 1p per week to a dole bludger, and sometimes somewhere in the middle. At no point will it be 'fair'.

They aren't much of a deterrent, either.

If we can agree on a definition of "fair" then I'm sure we can agree on a system of fines.
i.e. it's not the system which is at fault, it's the fact that we don't all agree on a definition of "fair". Same goes for tax/spend and pretty much all government policies.

[rst1234]

I think the points system is the best way.
If I was speeding and got caught, I'd worry about the 3 points on my license and that I only had 3 more to go until I got banned.
The fine wouldn't worry me. I don't think it's right to charge wealthy people more, they have worked hard for what they have achieved so should be treated fairly, not like they are more of a criminal because they have money.

[Fittster]

kiethton said:

just because the guy has worked hard and done well for himself
Just another envy tax IMO.

How do you know he worked hard? Inheritance, nepotism, lottery win?

[grumbledoak]

To be fair the punishment needs to remove something that we all have equally. Our time is the best available. But our leaders do not really want justice - they want every little thing illegal so they can more directly control who goes to gaol and who does not. But then it costs a lot to imprison everyone, and so we move to fines, and so on.

I imagine that rule of law is another 'great cycle' in human society, like democracy itself.

[vrooom]

What if you are bankrupt with lamborgini? license to speed ?

[rst1234]

vrooom said:

What if you are bankrupt with lamborgini? license to speed ?

The madness comes when you have a serious illness and are rich, all the hard work for nothing

[PoleDriver]

Finlandese said:

Well, our national motto is: "Who the f''k do you think you are?",

So that's where I get it from!

My mother was Finnish!