RE: PH 2013: Biggest disappointments
Discussion
Wills2 said:
Check out the 991GT3 thread in the Porsche section, plenty of deep pockets being dipped into there.
They just don't bother coming into the General Gassing section.Manual vs Auto debate goes on and on - will always do, it's not a technology advancement debate though - just a personal preference - I personally don't like using the throttle to do 2 things at once (i.e. act as a throttle to the engine, but also to decide what gear I'm in - makes it a dual purpose control and I've just never liked that).
Outside of supercars, hypercars etc - the manual hasn't died - do a quick search on VW against the GTI and I found more manuals than DSGs - given they brought the DSG to the mainstream, I think thats a good indication that the more normal performance market still likes them. This is what makes the Clio decision weird. The 991 GT3 decision is another weird one given they've always been the analogue choice - I can only assume that given the limited numbers being sold they don't really have a viable commercial opportunity to find out what the market would actually choose if they offered both.
What I find funny about the debate is that those who like manuals are just saying 'give me the choice' - they're not saying don't offer an auto. Whereas the auto fans preach the whole 'you're a Luddite' etc and try and compare it to features like ABS (which simply provide more safety but don't generally effect how you drive) or the synchromesh (which allows us to enjoy the manual more and make it easier to use, rather than take away control or enjoyment).
There is enough debate to suggest that manuals have a place (and 75% of cars sold in the UK are manuals still) - they are also lighter, will cause fewer issues when the cars get older and don't take away from other engineering advancements. Live and let live and all that...
Removal of choice for car buyers is a disappointment - even if its not the choice YOU would make.
That seems to tick all the boxes.csmith319 said:
Wills2 said:
Check out the 991GT3 thread in the Porsche section, plenty of deep pockets being dipped into there.
Outside of supercars, hypercars etc - the manual hasn't died - do a quick search on VW against the GTI and I found more manuals than DSGs - given they brought the DSG to the mainstream, I think thats a good indication that the more normal performance market still likes them. This is what makes the Clio decision weird. The 991 GT3 decision is another weird one given they've always been the analogue choice - I can only assume that given the limited numbers being sold they don't really have a viable commercial opportunity to find out what the market would actually choose if they offered both.I bought a manual 911 because the short shift box was so good, but most manuals I've driven aren't very good including my manual M3 that's why I got DCT this time round.
I'll get another 911 this coming year and it will be manual but that is based on how good that box is not just for the sake of having a manual.
fuchsiasteve said:
Brilliant call re GT6 being the biggest disappointment! Couldn't agree more. Utter dross! Haha
Geeks will tell you it's a simulator but it ain't. Nothing at all like the real thing and the engine sounds are still crap!
I came close to buying GT6 today but now i have been put off a little. I dont mind too much about the poor quality rendering of the non premium cars but i cannot forgive them if they have still not managed to record and use real engine sounds. Some cars are really distinct in the real world but in all GT games they all sound very simular. Always found the sound of the Impreza really disapointing and very annoying as its one of the most distinct japanese engines in production. If they cant get that right there is no hope!Geeks will tell you it's a simulator but it ain't. Nothing at all like the real thing and the engine sounds are still crap!
Wills2 said:
Regarding Porsche they do know, as more people choose PDK on the 911 than manual just like BMW with the DCT M3 much more popular when it was released vs manual.
I bought a manual 911 because the short shift box was so good, but most manuals I've driven aren't very good including my manual M3 that's why I got DCT this time round.
I'll get another 911 this coming year and it will be manual but that is based on how good that box is not just for the sake of having a manual.
Don't agree - they've had autos on the 911 for longer than I can remember. The PDK on the standard models increased take up - but these are not the same as the GT3 in terms of target market or indeed how they carved out a following in comparison to other cars aimed at the enthusiast market, e.g. Ferrari Scud etc.I bought a manual 911 because the short shift box was so good, but most manuals I've driven aren't very good including my manual M3 that's why I got DCT this time round.
I'll get another 911 this coming year and it will be manual but that is based on how good that box is not just for the sake of having a manual.
The M3 again is not a good comparison - it's an everyday car, designed to be as useful as a normal 3 series - not surprised there is a big takeup of the DCT, just like most high end 3 series. Hasn't stopped them offering a manual on the new M3 / M4 has it?
The Turbo being auto only makes sense - its been tried and tested with the 997 and its not a car focussed on involvement.
With the GT3 a choice would have been nice, even if just to say - 'you know what, SOME people find it more fun - so lets at least give the option'.
Again - I'm not saying don't provide an auto option, just saying that a manual option would be nice to have.
Baryonyx said:
Yes, some of GT6 looks like it was lifted from the original XBOX! Forza 5 looks a hundred times better.
Well considering Forza 5 is an Xbox One game which is a further generation on from the PS3 that GT6 has launched on, you'd expect it to look a lot better wouldn't you?csmith319 said:
Wills2 said:
Check out the 991GT3 thread in the Porsche section, plenty of deep pockets being dipped into there.
They just don't bother coming into the General Gassing section.Manual vs Auto debate goes on and on - will always do, it's not a technology advancement debate though - just a personal preference - I personally don't like using the throttle to do 2 things at once (i.e. act as a throttle to the engine, but also to decide what gear I'm in - makes it a dual purpose control and I've just never liked that).
Outside of supercars, hypercars etc - the manual hasn't died - do a quick search on VW against the GTI and I found more manuals than DSGs - given they brought the DSG to the mainstream, I think thats a good indication that the more normal performance market still likes them. This is what makes the Clio decision weird. The 991 GT3 decision is another weird one given they've always been the analogue choice - I can only assume that given the limited numbers being sold they don't really have a viable commercial opportunity to find out what the market would actually choose if they offered both.
What I find funny about the debate is that those who like manuals are just saying 'give me the choice' - they're not saying don't offer an auto. Whereas the auto fans preach the whole 'you're a Luddite' etc and try and compare it to features like ABS (which simply provide more safety but don't generally effect how you drive) or the synchromesh (which allows us to enjoy the manual more and make it easier to use, rather than take away control or enjoyment).
There is enough debate to suggest that manuals have a place (and 75% of cars sold in the UK are manuals still) - they are also lighter, will cause fewer issues when the cars get older and don't take away from other engineering advancements. Live and let live and all that...
Removal of choice for car buyers is a disappointment - even if its not the choice YOU would make.
F1GTRUeno said:
Well considering Forza 5 is an Xbox One game which is a further generation on from the PS3 that GT6 has launched on, you'd expect it to look a lot better wouldn't you?
Think is, I saw Forza 5 on an in-shop demo and, after all the hype, was left wondering what the fuss was all about. It looks nice, but not 7 years on from the 360. Vladimir said:
Fantuzzi said:
I'd say biggest disappointment for me was ECOTY 2013's review of the 4c, most reviews were pretty positive, EVO weren't so keen...
I say good on them for not showering the 4C and the AMG A45 with praise. They stuck their necks out and I respect them for it.On the manual vs auto thing, it seems to me that an awful lot of sporty cars are not actually bought by people with any driving ability. Increasingly the people with the cash to buy these things new are mainly wealthier folks in Asia who very often have them bought for them by their parents or husbands or sugar daddies. An excellent example is Malaysia and Singapore where a depressing number of Ferraris, Lambos etc etc are trashed within months of being sold by spoilt brats and idiots. I've not been to the Middle East, but I imagine it's a similar story there. Another thing to remember is that the car business is business, and the manufacturers answer to shareholders and financiers who care more about the bottom line than anything else. If not enough new car buyers want a manual they simply won't make them anymore.
I just bought a new GT-86 (Scion FRS). The salesman told me he'd have the manual car I wanted within 10 days, but that the big demand was for autos. The omens are not good for us traditionalists
I just bought a new GT-86 (Scion FRS). The salesman told me he'd have the manual car I wanted within 10 days, but that the big demand was for autos. The omens are not good for us traditionalists
csmith319 said:
Don't agree - they've had autos on the 911 for longer than I can remember. The PDK on the standard models increased take up - but these are not the same as the GT3 in terms of target market or indeed how they carved out a following in comparison to other cars aimed at the enthusiast market, e.g. Ferrari Scud etc.
The M3 again is not a good comparison - it's an everyday car, designed to be as useful as a normal 3 series - not surprised there is a big takeup of the DCT, just like most high end 3 series. Hasn't stopped them offering a manual on the new M3 / M4 has it?
The Turbo being auto only makes sense - its been tried and tested with the 997 and its not a car focussed on involvement.
With the GT3 a choice would have been nice, even if just to say - 'you know what, SOME people find it more fun - so lets at least give the option'.
Again - I'm not saying don't provide an auto option, just saying that a manual option would be nice to have.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with the Porsche execs sitting around debating whether it would be "nice" to give the enthusiasts an option to buy a manual or not.The M3 again is not a good comparison - it's an everyday car, designed to be as useful as a normal 3 series - not surprised there is a big takeup of the DCT, just like most high end 3 series. Hasn't stopped them offering a manual on the new M3 / M4 has it?
The Turbo being auto only makes sense - its been tried and tested with the 997 and its not a car focussed on involvement.
With the GT3 a choice would have been nice, even if just to say - 'you know what, SOME people find it more fun - so lets at least give the option'.
Again - I'm not saying don't provide an auto option, just saying that a manual option would be nice to have.
It's got everything to do with pure and simple business decisions. Porsche will make decisions based on what's going to maximize their profits. Selling a manual GT3 clearly won't anymore in their opinion.
Revelations about the cost of motoring versus what actually gets spent on our shoddy roads. Half a billion just in parking fines let alone counting speeding fines, still no perceivable improvement in the overall quality.
I've lost count of the near misses I've had trying to dodge potholes and failing to explain to my insurer why the blackbox in my car is picking up so much sudden movement. Apparently I'm some sort of drift king or learner race queen...
I've lost count of the near misses I've had trying to dodge potholes and failing to explain to my insurer why the blackbox in my car is picking up so much sudden movement. Apparently I'm some sort of drift king or learner race queen...
The biggest disappointment for me was that there are still people in government that think it's neat idea to introduce road tolls. I know the A14 toll was knocked on the head (thank goodness) but the very fact that they considered it in the first place was beyond taking the piss. We pay enough in general taxation and road fund license already !
EK993 said:
It's got absolutely nothing to do with the Porsche execs sitting around debating whether it would be "nice" to give the enthusiasts an option to buy a manual or not.
It's got everything to do with pure and simple business decisions. Porsche will make decisions based on what's going to maximize their profits. Selling a manual GT3 clearly won't anymore in their opinion.
To some extent I agree with your logic - but I don't think its as black and white as that. For one - given the limited numbers of cars being made, they could have made them all in manual for probably a significantly lower development and production cost and still sold the them all many times over before they were released. I don't remember a single journalist or poster on a forum saying "thank God they finally put an auto in the GT3 - NOW I'll buy one".It's got everything to do with pure and simple business decisions. Porsche will make decisions based on what's going to maximize their profits. Selling a manual GT3 clearly won't anymore in their opinion.
If we believe the engineers, then it was based purely on performance - i.e. the DSG is objectively faster and hence that's what the car should have and providing another transmission option based on the limited numbers being made just didn't make sense financially - that's probably a more realistic view of the situation.
I get that more people are buying DSG on 911's now (not sure if that's the case on Boxsters & Caymans??) and I also get on a car with such a limited run as the GT3 that offering both may not make sense on a purely financial basis - but by not doing so they've generated a lot of negative column inches across magazines, websites and forums - that isn't a good thing for them. Perhaps you will say that doesn't matter - but I personally think it does. I also think that with the GT3, if the option was there a 50:50 split in take up wouldn't be unexpected and even perhaps tipping in the manuals favour.
Some decent examples of where manuals are still showing their importance:
- BMW 1M Coupe - manual only, sold out overnight and probably the strongest residuals of any BMW in recent history (that includes the CSL which plummeted in value when first sold and is still 50% down on its list price, the 1M is within 12% generally)
- Aston Vanquish - retro fitting a manual has been a huge success and has added value to the cars
- BMW M5 - in the States both the E60 and current model have had to have manual options fitted due to customer demand
- BMW M3 / M4 - they didn't need to you could argue, but they have offered both options
- Honda Civic Type R - to be a manual, even though its chasing a 'ring record
I think it comes down to the perceived purpose of the car in question - cars that stand for all out supreme performance and laptimes (i.e. Supercars, Ferrari's, Nissan GTR etc) a dual clutch makes sense. Cars made for driver enjoyment and involvement, a transmission option makes sense - I put the GT3 in this category - it's always been the paired back, driver focused model, that it is analogue in a sea of digital one of its USPs.
Again - choice for customers is important, not all options make business sense, but some can.
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