petrol vs diesel running costs - dont understand!
Discussion
The idiot in the DT with the hat that he cant wear str8 always goes on and onandonandon......with this comparison and always gets it wrong. He always, as opposed to the vast majority of PH here, quotes from when a car is new........the cost of petrol v diesel. BUT, most private buyers dont buy brand spankin new but 2/3/4 yr old cars, then the price differential is much narrower. My oil burner averages 50 mpg, the petrol version 35mpg. Its a 2009, the diff in retail is all but the same. Servicing etc is approx the same but when I come to sell it, the oil burner will get a better price.
sparkyhx said:
just found this - 4years old
Breakeven miles - not sure if they have calculated in depreciation, insurance, servicing
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/buying/Archiv...
Quick look at servicing on a few and found greater parity in the miles these days, but also found many where petrol = every 2 years or x miles and diesel every 1 years or x miles.
So instead of mileage they get you on 'years' instead
Some of those figures are scary! A BMW 530D SE Auto will never break even in cost terms with it's petrol? That's mental! The Mercedes CLS 320CDI is cheaper to buy and run than the petrol though.Breakeven miles - not sure if they have calculated in depreciation, insurance, servicing
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/buying/Archiv...
Quick look at servicing on a few and found greater parity in the miles these days, but also found many where petrol = every 2 years or x miles and diesel every 1 years or x miles.
So instead of mileage they get you on 'years' instead
jkb89 said:
And, 8p difference per litre x 4.54 = 36p per gallon worse off for diesel.
Good thing round here it's 6p, easy to prove anything when you alter the facts...That, and the improved efficiency more than offsetting the increased cost per unit volume, would be why people are paying more for those "more expensive to buy" cars and the Diesel market share has increased while petrol cars are in decline...
the_lone_wolf said:
jkb89 said:
And, 8p difference per litre x 4.54 = 36p per gallon worse off for diesel.
Good thing round here it's 6p, easy to prove anything when you alter the facts...That, and the improved efficiency more than offsetting the increased cost per unit volume, would be why people are paying more for those "more expensive to buy" cars and the Diesel market share has increased while petrol cars are in decline...
) sense. But that the vast majority of general public buyers think "Diesel=free motoring" regardless of whether their situation means it will be true.the_lone_wolf said:
jkb89 said:
And, 8p difference per litre x 4.54 = 36p per gallon worse off for diesel.
Good thing round here it's 6p, easy to prove anything when you alter the facts...That, and the improved efficiency more than offsetting the increased cost per unit volume, would be why people are paying more for those "more expensive to buy" cars and the Diesel market share has increased while petrol cars are in decline...
Edited by sparkyhx on Tuesday 7th January 21:59
mikal83 said:
Its a 2009, the diff in retail is all but the same. Servicing etc is approx the same but when I come to sell it, the oil burner will get a better price.
So you reckon your diesel car costs about the same as a petrol one when buying second hand, but you then expect to be able to sell it for more than a petrol? You can't have it both ways.sparkyhx said:
The increase in Diesel sales is due to the 'headline' fuel savings (30mpg vs 50mpg) and tax savings, irrespective of the fact most people don't do enough miles to offset the higher purchase and arguably higher running costs.
Working with what I know, assuming a (generous) more than 15% price premium for my own car over a petrol equivalent, If I did 5000 miles a year it'd take three years to offset the additional purchase cost not counting retained valueAt 10,000 miles per annum that drops to 18 months, not taking into account mine will be worth not far off what I paid extra for it more when I come to sell
That's hardly interstellar mileage is it? I'm on course to do plenty more than that this year, I have no commute and I don't drive for a living...
Don't think for a second that I don't appreciate a good petrol engine or I'm some kind of Diesel fanboy (although 99% of the time I find Diesel far more suited to daily driving), I just think the whole "you won't do the mileage to justify it" argument doesn't actually stand up once the maths gets involved
Rich_W said:
I don't think anyone's saying there isn't a point where a Diesel makes economic (if obviously not style, since no one likes the smell and soot of diesels ) sense. But that the vast majority of general public buyers think "Diesel=free motoring" regardless of whether their situation means it will be true.
Anybody who's visited a petrol station during their driving career will be under no impression that the concept of free motoring is anything close to reality ) sense. But that the vast majority of general public buyers think "Diesel=free motoring" regardless of whether their situation means it will be true.
- see previous post for my rebuttal to the whole "unjustifiable premium" argument...As for style, the soot/smell argument was around when Diesel was still dinosaurs, mine produces neither in any greater quantity than any petrol motor and it's getting on for 110,000 miles and a decade old now!! It even sounds better than most petrol motors on the road today...
We're talking about the Volvo in tyour profile?
Can we run some numbers on it. Purchase price. Estimated selling price. Miles per year. Rough unexpected costs you've had on it in that time. Maybe you;ve never needed a EGR or DPF or DMF. Be interesting to know.
We'll compare it to a Petrol eqivilent
Can we run some numbers on it. Purchase price. Estimated selling price. Miles per year. Rough unexpected costs you've had on it in that time. Maybe you;ve never needed a EGR or DPF or DMF. Be interesting to know.
We'll compare it to a Petrol eqivilent
£7000 vs. £6000 purchase cost (I think that's more than reality, but I can afford to exaggerate)
40mpg (measured from my own car, but I don't drive economically and it could easily be 45) vs ~27mpg (from owners forum experiences, not inc. the T5 obviously)
Fuel prices what they were today at my local Sainsbury's (130p/l vs. 136p/l)
Fill your boots...
Like I said, the timescales I quote neglect that the Diesel car will be worth more when I sell it
Costs to me were minimal, only significant cost was replacing the clutch, DMF and slave cylinder which cost a grand a couple of years back, over the mileage and time I'll own the car (~5yrs) it's less than the tax discs will cost, everything else has been inexpensive routine items and I service it myself...
40mpg (measured from my own car, but I don't drive economically and it could easily be 45) vs ~27mpg (from owners forum experiences, not inc. the T5 obviously)
Fuel prices what they were today at my local Sainsbury's (130p/l vs. 136p/l)
Fill your boots...
Like I said, the timescales I quote neglect that the Diesel car will be worth more when I sell it
Costs to me were minimal, only significant cost was replacing the clutch, DMF and slave cylinder which cost a grand a couple of years back, over the mileage and time I'll own the car (~5yrs) it's less than the tax discs will cost, everything else has been inexpensive routine items and I service it myself...
Engineer1 said:
The payoff mileage for diesel is probably higher than 10k miles these days
Nonsense - far too many variables to be able to quote an absolute annual mileage where diesels gain over petrol.When I buy a car I set a budget, so I paid £16K for a 15 month old diesel car rather than buy the 12 month old petrol equivalent. My diesel has averaged 45.3mpg over almost 6k miles, I expect the petrol would have been around 35mpg at the most. So diesel costs 7% more but gives 25% better mpg - over my annual 11K miles that's more than £300 per year. Also lower road fund licence and insurance.
On a 3 mile trip, when the temperature is in single figures (Centigrade), my 2.0TDi(170) just manages to match the mpg of my wife's 1.2T(100) petrol. However, the overall figure is 9mpg better.
I have seen a number of petrol-diesel cost comparisons that are based on the published mpg figures rather than real world mpg. This is really nonsense when the petrol is one of the small turbo engines now being sold (Ford 1.0T, etc.).
sparkyhx said:
northwest monkey said:
pherlopolus said:
sparkyhx said:
Servicing cost are usually higher on Diesels - another factor
really?As an example see here, out of the 4 'servicing' levels the Diesel is more expensive on 3 of them (at a guess level 2 probably includes sparkplugs)
Service Level Diesel Petrol
Level 1 £145.00 £109.00
Level 2 £185.00 £219.00
Level 3 £285.00 £249.00
Level 4 £385.00 £349.00
Taken from http://www.brayleys.co.uk/mazda-servicing/mazda-se...
You have also to figure in a new DMF for a diesel every ~80k or so.
Generally 10k is the break even point but it all depends on the car, the Diesel equivalent of mine would have cost ~3k more and at only ~5k of personal miles a year (and 4k business) I'm not going to make that back. It would also be slower and handle worse.
the_lone_wolf said:
sparkyhx said:
The increase in Diesel sales is due to the 'headline' fuel savings (30mpg vs 50mpg) and tax savings, irrespective of the fact most people don't do enough miles to offset the higher purchase and arguably higher running costs.
Working with what I know, assuming a (generous) more than 15% price premium for my own car over a petrol equivalent, If I did 5000 miles a year it'd take three years to offset the additional purchase cost not counting retained valueAt 10,000 miles per annum that drops to 18 months, not taking into account mine will be worth not far off what I paid extra for it more when I come to sell
That's hardly interstellar mileage is it? I'm on course to do plenty more than that this year, I have no commute and I don't drive for a living...
Don't think for a second that I don't appreciate a good petrol engine or I'm some kind of Diesel fanboy (although 99% of the time I find Diesel far more suited to daily driving), I just think the whole "you won't do the mileage to justify it" argument doesn't actually stand up once the maths gets involved
Edited by sparkyhx on Wednesday 8th January 10:38
Sorry to disappoint the anti-diesel crowd!
150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
Jimboka said:
Sorry to disappoint the anti-diesel crowd!
150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
I'm not anti diesel - I bought an Diesel i30 two months ago - but I went into it with my eyes open not closed. I firmly believe for the vast majority of current diesel owners it doesn't make financial sense to have one. You may want one, like the engine characteristics etc, but if you ask most of them why they got a diesel they will probably say for the savings, not its driving characteristics.150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
Jimboka said:
Sorry to disappoint the anti-diesel crowd!
150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
I don't think anyone would ever argue that a diesel wasn't the right car for doing 15k miles a year, or that it wouldn't be perfectly reliable doing it? The OP is talking about using diesels for small mileages, not large ones. 150000 miles on diesels over last 10 years. 1x Egr issue, changed for £300.
Nobe of the scare stories that only happen on the internet, rather than real life.
I also prefer how they drive.
So saved thousands on fuel & not on first name terms with my local fuel station.
Also my current 5 year old car had only depreciated by 6k , petrol would have depreciated by 8...
Fastdruid said:
Not just overall, from what I've seen individually they're higher also.
As an example see here, out of the 4 'servicing' levels the Diesel is more expensive on 3 of them (at a guess level 2 probably includes sparkplugs)
Service Level Diesel Petrol
Level 1 £145.00 £109.00
Level 2 £185.00 £219.00
Level 3 £285.00 £249.00
Level 4 £385.00 £349.00
Taken from http://www.brayleys.co.uk/mazda-servicing/mazda-se...
You have also to figure in a new DMF for a diesel every ~80k or so.
Generally 10k is the break even point but it all depends on the car, the Diesel equivalent of mine would have cost ~3k more and at only ~5k of personal miles a year (and 4k business) I'm not going to make that back. It would also be slower and handle worse.
none of those Mazda levels include spark plugs or any ignition renewal, they don't differentiate on whats included for Diesel/Petrol at all. I'm guessing they use Oil made from unicorn fat for diesels... As an example see here, out of the 4 'servicing' levels the Diesel is more expensive on 3 of them (at a guess level 2 probably includes sparkplugs)
Service Level Diesel Petrol
Level 1 £145.00 £109.00
Level 2 £185.00 £219.00
Level 3 £285.00 £249.00
Level 4 £385.00 £349.00
Taken from http://www.brayleys.co.uk/mazda-servicing/mazda-se...
You have also to figure in a new DMF for a diesel every ~80k or so.
Generally 10k is the break even point but it all depends on the car, the Diesel equivalent of mine would have cost ~3k more and at only ~5k of personal miles a year (and 4k business) I'm not going to make that back. It would also be slower and handle worse.
My wifes car is on it's 3rd coil pack in 5 years @ 6000 miles a year - £100 a pop...
EDIT....
http://www.servicingstop.co.uk/ generates the same cost for servicing whether petrol or diesel on both our cars...
Edited by pherlopolus on Wednesday 8th January 11:12
the_lone_wolf said:
ood thing round here it's 6p, easy to prove anything when you alter the facts...
That, and the improved efficiency more than offsetting the increased cost per unit volume, would be why people are paying more for those "more expensive to buy" cars and the Diesel market share has increased while petrol cars are in decline...
UK Petrol Prices for Tuesday 7th January 2014That, and the improved efficiency more than offsetting the increased cost per unit volume, would be why people are paying more for those "more expensive to buy" cars and the Diesel market share has increased while petrol cars are in decline...
Avg Min Max
Unleaded 130.76p 126.7p 145.9p
Diesel 138.48p 133.9p 152.9p
Super Unleaded 139.50p 131.9p 159.9p
Premium Diesel 148.86p 140.9p 164.9p
LPG 72.62p 65.9p 79.9p
7.72p = ~8p. Easy to prove anything when I alter the facts?
Equivalent age/spec petrol cars will be cheaper than their diesel counterparts. Yes, this will be offset by the eventual running costs; I'm just saying you have to put in the miles to make it worth it. People tend to be too hung up on "what mpg?" rather than doing a total cost analysis over a set period of time.
That being said, I drive a diesel - but I'd prefer to drive a petrol car if I had the choice.
And, petrol smells better.
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