RE: Ferrari 488GTB: Driven
Discussion
Dan Trent said:
981C said:
I'd like to see those power and torque graphs for each gear. Also, there's no mention of the limiter anywhere. The Macca will Rev to 8500, so I guess this is lower.
Here you go! Black line is 458, the lowest red line is the torque map for gears one, two and three, next one is fourth, then fifth, sixth and finally seventh with the full whack. Edited by 981C on Friday 5th June 08:15
Hope that's useful!
Cheers,
Dan
RamboLambo said:
Difficult to see the scale lb/ft of torque but looking at the curves per gear it seems everything bar 7th gear is less than 500 lb/ft and 560 is only available in 7th
They rattled through some stats of how much was available in each gear; let me just see if I can make sense of my notes... Right, it was all a bit confusing but I've got "in all but seventh gear you have 700Nm [516lb ft] and in seventh you have 750Nm [560lb ft]" which would tally with the curves on the graph. So, yes, in gears 1-6 torque would appear to be limited to a measly 516lb ft!
I have some figures about the incremental gains in each gear - +20 per cent 3rd-4th, +25 per cent 4th-5th, +35 per cent 5th-6th and +40per cent 6th-7th but exactly how that's quantified wasn't explained so I didn't include it in the original story. I'm working on the assumption this was calculated at an undisclosed rpm on that chart where you can see how the curve is shallower in the lower gears and revs - scroll up from 3,000rpm for instance and you can see the difference in each curve before they all converge on 516lb ft just shy of 6,500rpm.
Hope that makes some sort of sense!
Cheers,
Dan
Cant get excited by this at all. Looks like a fussy 458. The engine noise is very dull. Just not special in any way. Ok the performance is incredible, but what good is that going to do me on a british A/B road ?
I want drama at low speed and for that you need something a lot more charachtful. Id have a f12 or huracan over this any day.
I want drama at low speed and for that you need something a lot more charachtful. Id have a f12 or huracan over this any day.
Dan Trent said:
So, yes, in gears 1-6 torque would appear to be limited to a measly 516lb ft!
andArticle said:
Leaving you to marvel at the ability to dive into the corner and plant your foot safe in the knowledge as much of that 670hp and 560lb ft as possible will fire you out the other side.
How many times do you want to fire out of a corner in 7th gear?recommended reading for the inquisitive reader:
just something to keep in mind when you see the likes of chris harris hug the chief test driver and wax lyrical about their latest creation.
Chris Harris said:
Like anyone with half a brain, I've been willing to cut Ferrari some slack because it is, well, Ferrari –- the most famous fast car brand of all and the maker of cars that everyone wants to know about. Bang out a video of yourself drifting a new Jag XKR on YouTube and 17 people watch it; do the same in a 430 Scuderia and the audience is 500,000 strong. As a journalist, those numbers make you willing to accommodate truck-loads of bulls
t
(...)
The control freakery is getting worse: for the FF launch in March journalists have to say which outlets they are writing it for and those have to be approved by Maranello. Honestly, we're perilously close to having the words and verdicts vetted by the Ferrari press office before they're released, which of course has always been the way in some markets.
http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spinst(...)
The control freakery is getting worse: for the FF launch in March journalists have to say which outlets they are writing it for and those have to be approved by Maranello. Honestly, we're perilously close to having the words and verdicts vetted by the Ferrari press office before they're released, which of course has always been the way in some markets.
just something to keep in mind when you see the likes of chris harris hug the chief test driver and wax lyrical about their latest creation.
Dagnut said:
Boring? I would you love to see you manage a 660bhp car without electronic aids...this hero purist bullst is getting tiresome now.
Yes we all prefer manuals, Yes we all prefer N/A..but what are Ferrari to do..how could you make a 660bhp N/A V8 in a production car and keep in under 200k and 7 litres?
The car has to be competitive and Mclarens where getting to far away, I don't buy any of the emissions cr@p with this car its all about performance, this engine gives them scoop to hit 700-750 if they need to and they probably will, no doubt McLaren will get there quicker.
For purely driving pleasure, maybe it doesn't need 660bhp? Perhaps one could argue that the F355 is more enjoyable with 375bhp & 268lb/ft, an open-gate gearbox and primitive electronics than the 488 with 660bhp & 550lb/ft, a dual-clutch auto and a Cray supercomputer in charge.t is getting tiresome now.Yes we all prefer manuals, Yes we all prefer N/A..but what are Ferrari to do..how could you make a 660bhp N/A V8 in a production car and keep in under 200k and 7 litres?
The car has to be competitive and Mclarens where getting to far away, I don't buy any of the emissions cr@p with this car its all about performance, this engine gives them scoop to hit 700-750 if they need to and they probably will, no doubt McLaren will get there quicker.
Of course the new car HAS to be faster and more powerful than the old one, even if it actually makes it less enjoyable as a driver's car.
swimd said:
recommended reading for the inquisitive reader:
just something to keep in mind when you see the likes of chris harris hug the chief test driver and wax lyrical about their latest creation.
The fact that Chris Harris had this bust up with Ferrari (and has come out the other side of it) means he is more trustworthy than a lot of other car journalists who didn't have the balls to say anything, when they all knew what was going on, in my opinion.Chris Harris said:
Like anyone with half a brain, I've been willing to cut Ferrari some slack because it is, well, Ferrari –- the most famous fast car brand of all and the maker of cars that everyone wants to know about. Bang out a video of yourself drifting a new Jag XKR on YouTube and 17 people watch it; do the same in a 430 Scuderia and the audience is 500,000 strong. As a journalist, those numbers make you willing to accommodate truck-loads of bullst
(...)
The control freakery is getting worse: for the FF launch in March journalists have to say which outlets they are writing it for and those have to be approved by Maranello. Honestly, we're perilously close to having the words and verdicts vetted by the Ferrari press office before they're released, which of course has always been the way in some markets.
http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spinst(...)
The control freakery is getting worse: for the FF launch in March journalists have to say which outlets they are writing it for and those have to be approved by Maranello. Honestly, we're perilously close to having the words and verdicts vetted by the Ferrari press office before they're released, which of course has always been the way in some markets.
just something to keep in mind when you see the likes of chris harris hug the chief test driver and wax lyrical about their latest creation.
gl20 said:
With continuous hikes in power, aero, tech and price, is there now space for a new range that is more similar in feel to 328 - 355? Not as fast but still quick and a look that I think a lot of people miss.
I've just read a piece in Motorsport. Andrew Frankel asked Marchionne if there was going to be a new Dino? "It's a question of when, not if." was his reply.That's an old fashioned journalist's scoop.
RamboLambo said:
981C said:
I'd like to see those power and torque graphs for each gear. Also, there's no mention of the limiter anywhere. The Macca will Rev to 8500, so I guess this is lower.
Precisely. Easy to quote top numbers and put a positive spin on it but as good as it all sounds they can't hide the fact that its a facelifted 458 without the V8 n/a soundtrack.Edited by 981C on Friday 5th June 08:15
Now that USP over McLaren has gone it will be interesting to see the 488 v 650 shootout
981C said:
Max_Torque said:
It's worth noting that ALL turbo cars do that^^^^ anyway, even if it's not "mapped" in
What, different torque in different gears?This is because the turbocharger has inertia. It cannot accelerate instantaneously, and by the time it has accelerated, so has the vehicle and hence the engine is not at the speed it was previously!
In the worst case, in 1st gear, the vehicle can accelerate to the limiter BEFORE the turbocharger has provided any significant positive boost pressure!
The graphs shown are steady state graphs from the engine dyno, where the engine has been stabilised at that load and speed for 30sec before the torque readings are recorded. As such, the inertia of the boosting system are negated, and you get to the steady state output of the engine.
In the 488 cases, they are clearly calling for lower torque at lower engine speeds in the lower gears to ensure the torque curve always has "negative torque back up" (NTBU) which makes the engine feel more and more urgent towards the higher speed ranges. On a more conventional passenger car turbo engine/platform, you would generally map with a "positive torque back up" (PTBU) to maximise in gear performance and hill gradability. However something like a 488 has so much performance that it is almost certainly traction limited in any gear below about 3rd, and so a WOT NTBU is acceptable
It's also worth noting that the claim of "only 0.1 sec behind the N/A engine in the 458" is a little bit of marketing spin, because the torque response in any passenger car is deliberately rate limited for driveability/NVH reasons! Unlimited, a typical plenum filling delay would be around the same time as it takes the throttle plates to fully open {~100ms) but his is rated limited to 0.6sec in the 458 to avoid ringing the powertrain (and the drivers head) like a bell!
Max_Torque said:
Pretty much yes.
This is because the turbocharger has inertia. It cannot accelerate instantaneously, and by the time it has accelerated, so has the vehicle and hence the engine is not at the speed it was previously!
In the worst case, in 1st gear, the vehicle can accelerate to the limiter BEFORE the turbocharger has provided any significant positive boost pressure!
The graphs shown are steady state graphs from the engine dyno, where the engine has been stabilised at that load and speed for 30sec before the torque readings are recorded. As such, the inertia of the boosting system are negated, and you get to the steady state output of the engine.
In the 488 cases, they are clearly calling for lower torque at lower engine speeds in the lower gears to ensure the torque curve always has "negative torque back up" (NTBU) which makes the engine feel more and more urgent towards the higher speed ranges. On a more conventional passenger car turbo engine/platform, you would generally map with a "positive torque back up" (PTBU) to maximise in gear performance and hill gradability. However something like a 488 has so much performance that it is almost certainly traction limited in any gear below about 3rd, and so a WOT NTBU is acceptable
It's also worth noting that the claim of "only 0.1 sec behind the N/A engine in the 458" is a little bit of marketing spin, because the torque response in any passenger car is deliberately rate limited for driveability/NVH reasons! Unlimited, a typical plenum filling delay would be around the same time as it takes the throttle plates to fully open {~100ms) but his is rated limited to 0.6sec in the 458 to avoid ringing the powertrain (and the drivers head) like a bell!
Very interesting. Slightly off topic but can you comment on how electrical turbochargers will affect the throttle response and power delivery of future engines? In my mind it should be possible that an engine with an electrical turbocharger will eventually match or exceed the throttle response of a N/A engine. This is because the turbocharger has inertia. It cannot accelerate instantaneously, and by the time it has accelerated, so has the vehicle and hence the engine is not at the speed it was previously!
In the worst case, in 1st gear, the vehicle can accelerate to the limiter BEFORE the turbocharger has provided any significant positive boost pressure!
The graphs shown are steady state graphs from the engine dyno, where the engine has been stabilised at that load and speed for 30sec before the torque readings are recorded. As such, the inertia of the boosting system are negated, and you get to the steady state output of the engine.
In the 488 cases, they are clearly calling for lower torque at lower engine speeds in the lower gears to ensure the torque curve always has "negative torque back up" (NTBU) which makes the engine feel more and more urgent towards the higher speed ranges. On a more conventional passenger car turbo engine/platform, you would generally map with a "positive torque back up" (PTBU) to maximise in gear performance and hill gradability. However something like a 488 has so much performance that it is almost certainly traction limited in any gear below about 3rd, and so a WOT NTBU is acceptable
It's also worth noting that the claim of "only 0.1 sec behind the N/A engine in the 458" is a little bit of marketing spin, because the torque response in any passenger car is deliberately rate limited for driveability/NVH reasons! Unlimited, a typical plenum filling delay would be around the same time as it takes the throttle plates to fully open {~100ms) but his is rated limited to 0.6sec in the 458 to avoid ringing the powertrain (and the drivers head) like a bell!
Coupled with a "standard" turbocharger this could solve the lag-issue for once and for all, because powering it from a large enough battery they e-turbo could keep the boost up at all times, even when the engine is idling at 1000 rpm.
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