RE: PH Heroes: Lotus Carlton

[B'stard Child]

Some great posts above but I think we all are wasting our breath maybe.....

Here are some pictures of mine to liven up the thread a bit and maybe get it back on track

The Lotus Carlton - Here it is looking very sorry for itself in the workshop at Hethel (many years before I bought it - 1998 now I've checked my records)





The car featured in the History of Lotus Cars under Type104

Cover Vol 2



Page 1 of double page spread


Page 2 of double page spread


When I bought the book from a stand at the lotus show the lady at the till said "There is a car in the show that is in this book"

I laughed and said"I know it's mine" :lol:

Some pics of the car at the show

On the club stand at the Lotus show at Donnington 2001 not long after I got it I think - shock horror BC in washed and polished show std shocker!!!!





Engine



General Pics

Sometime between then and now - don't really know when assume 2003





Holiday Snap

On a European tour (taken in the hills around Umbria in Italy)



Yes you can get over 30 mpg out of a 3.6 Litre twin turbo and over 500 miles out of a tank full of fuel!!!

"It's not a photoshop honest" pics

Finally some pics to validate a picture that people always assume to be a photoshop

Background - I washed it and polished it (thats like a really really rare event) - it was a sunny day and I drove to a place where I know you can get some nice car pics (it suddenly persisted down with rain and the roads were wet and dirty on the way there)

Damn - Oh well might as well take some pics then anyway

Not too mucky really



Oooh maybe not



Definately not clean - Most of the day wasted then!!



So how the hell did this one work out so right



Obviously never raced or rallied











Sorry for anyone who expected me to post a picture of an E39 M5 to get the thread back on track

[B'stard Child]

Quinny said:

Cool.

Looks bloody great

Doesn't look so good at the moment - 35K miles from when it was built and it's in the garage over a pit - the gearbox is out as I'm putting a new clutch in it and the bell housing is cracked so that's away being modified so it doesn't happen again but it's a common problem and there are various ways of fixing it.

Still on the upside as the downpipes and cats had to come of anyway to get the box out I can fit the BTB de-catted downpipes I bought 4 years ago(already got the rest of the BTB system fitted), lose the cat flaps at the same time so it might sound a bit better when back together.

I've some other jobs to do to it once it's got a clutch that doesn't slip when you give it the beans but hopefully it'll be all sorted for when they stop salting the damn roads - it has after all a large chunk of Vauxhall DNA and the old tinworm likes that!!!

[Utopia]

Shropshiremike said:

Utopia said:

One such journalist did a "mere" 168mph I believe... in the wet!!

R.

Is that the "Rain Stopped Play" article in CAR by Russell Bulgin? One of my favourite ever

Shropshiremike, Yes you are correct. Not the sort of thing I would do, but every journalist attempted to slay the car! Even the fastest man on earth attempted that Forget his name.... Richard someone....!

[Utopia]

B'stard Child

Dont suppose you got any close ups of the LC body work by chance?

[Utopia]

BTW, anyone see the 5th Gear Programms - compares the LC against the VXR8.
I know there is a forum for VXR, and quite UNsurprisingly, they rate the VXR8 as a much better car than the LC. But seeing as its a different, better engineered technically designed car, is it fair to compare??

Edited by Utopia on Friday 8th February 16:45

[damiwi]

Utopia said:

Damiwi,
Yet again, you have completely missed the point. Its not about "How many hits" you can acheieve LOL.

The Lotus Calrton has earnt its place in the Automotive Industry, which makes

I didn't miss the point, I never said the Lotus Carlton wasn't an Icon, you've distorted the reasoning here.

This post was a response to those that stated that the M5 wasn't an iconic car.

I posted the Google search information to demonstrate that the useage of the word Icon is associated with both vehicles therefore they are both described as Iconic.

Laugh out loud as much as you wish.

You could argue that the LC is more iconic but that's totally different to stating that the M5 isn't an iconic vehicle.

[B'stard Child]

Utopia said:

B'stard Child

Dont suppose you got any close ups of the LC body work by chance?

How do you mean close ups........

If i know what you want I can take some pics no problem

[Utopia]

damiwi said:

Utopia said:

Damiwi,
Yet again, you have completely missed the point. Its not about "How many hits" you can acheieve LOL.

The Lotus Calrton has earnt its place in the Automotive Industry, which makes

I posted the Google search information to demonstrate that the useage of the word Icon is associated with both vehicles therefore they are both described as Iconic.

But why?? BTW, I am not laughing at you ok - please chill out Its not a fair comparison this googling Bit like saying a search for a GOLF GTI is better than a FOCUS ST.

[B'stard Child]

Utopia said:

BTW, anyone see the 5th Gear Programms - compares the LC against the VXR8.
I know there is a forum for VXR, and quite UNsurprisingly, they rate the VXR8 as a much better car than the LC. But seeing as its a different, better engineered technically designed car, is it fair to compare??

I think it's a fair car to compare the LC against in terms of performance but I would view the results of the lap test with a great deal of suspicion for several reasons but mainly because the "heritage" Lotus Carlton has been proved in other recent events and tests to be a bit down on bhp (probably boost turned down) and that probably achieved the result Vauxhall wanted. They want to sell the latest product and it would do them no favours to have a 19 year old design still defeat the new 3rd generation product of the day.

In terms of ride quality, comfort and all the mod cons you expect from a £35K car probably not a fair comparison after most LC's used in comparison will have those years and probably a fair few miles under it's belt.

Having said that the VXR is a heck of a car and several Autobahnstormers members who have owned both rate it highly - when they depreciate to a point that I can afford one without recourse to finance I'll almost certainly buy one and go have some fun

[damiwi]

D_T_W said:

damiwi said:

For a kick off they struggled to achieve anything over 160mph and that was revving the nuts off because it couldn't pull top gear.

If you compared one with an E39 M5, the Carlton would feel like a bag of spanners.

Totally over hyped and over rated vehicle in my opinion that couldn't live up to the speel.

Rose tinted glasses.

I think there is one on Autotrader advertised for over 40K, must be bonkers.

Having had an M3 and an FQ-360MR, I'm going back to the M5, best car I ever owned.

I really like this quote, gives a clear indication of just how little you know about the Lotus Carlton.

Several magazines have reached speeds in excess of 170mph in various LC, and i would imagine that is achieved by thrashing it. I don't see them getting much above 120 mph by short shifting at 4k rpm, do you? Also, could you tell me, what gear does your M5 reach it's max speed in? Can it pull to the limiter in 6th? Mine certainly can't

As has been pointed out numerous times before, the Carlton is at least 10 years older than the E39 M5, hence the M5 feeling "tighter", which is also why it's daft to try and compare then. As i have stated before, the E34 M5 is the equivalent BMW offering. Prices are irrelevant, you can buy a classic E type Jag for £50k, yet i suspect you would want to compare that to say, the current XKR in terms of how it drives?

It more than lived up to its spheel, i would advise reading some reviews of the car fromt the time it was released, it had several road testers amazed at just how good a car it was considering it's humble under pinnings. Of course it had its flaws, but they vanished into insignificance compared to its positives.

I'm pleased you have a varied selection of cars from which to draw comparisons, but unless you've driven one, or at least passengered in one, how can you give an authoritive view?

I'm not sure why you think I know nothing about the Lotus Carlton. Let me explain my post.

I remember reading the motoring press about the LC when it came out, they slated the gearing, complaining that sixth gear was useless as a driving gear, it didn't have the power to pull sixth gear. Top speed had to be done in Fifth.

They had to take the car across to Europe to find a long enough straight to take the car to its claimed maximum speed because there wasn't a straight long enough in the UK. The car would get up to 160mph and then it was a long haul after that due to the aerodynamics and depending on condition, hence the long straight roads/tracks. Therefore it struggled after 160mph.

Drive an M5 then drive a Lotus Carlton, I know which one will feel like a bag of spanners but that's my subjective opinion having owned an M5 (e39) and knowing how it compares with contemporary vehicles, never mind an older car.

The LC was hyped up in the press because sales were poor and to create publicity. The Carlton wasn't a great car and had a poor image. The Lotus Carlton had no race pedigree like the Sunbeam Lotus.

Anyone suggesting a price tag of 40K is bonkers... nobody would surely disagree with that ???

I know enough about the LC to have an opinion.

[10 Pence Short]

For gods sake, listen to yourself. Go and find/start an M5 appreciation thread and spunk your load up it's wall.

This thread is to appreciate what a fine car the Lotus Carlton was.

Not because it's the fastest car ever.

Not because it's the best handling car ever.

Not because it has the best sales figures.


Because it was a bloody crazy idea and they did it and by god it made young men want to own fast cars.

At that time the M5 was just another 5 series.

[damiwi]

Utopia said:

damiwi said:

Utopia said:

Damiwi,
Yet again, you have completely missed the point. Its not about "How many hits" you can acheieve LOL.

The Lotus Calrton has earnt its place in the Automotive Industry, which makes

I posted the Google search information to demonstrate that the useage of the word Icon is associated with both vehicles therefore they are both described as Iconic.

But why?? BTW, I am not laughing at you ok - please chill out Its not a fair comparison this googling Bit like saying a search for a GOLF GTI is better than a FOCUS ST.

I didn't say one was better than the other.

I just wanted to prove that the term icon is used in reference to both vehicles.

There is no point in discussing this further.

The M5 and the LC are both iconic cars ... end of story.... for anyone to suggest otherwise is pure nonsense.

[B'stard Child]

Quinny said:

I think you should probably give up on it and give it to me

Don't start me off on that - I've had a long term love hate relationship with the car since I owned it, It's never hurt me or scared me or even broke down on me and as a 4 seater "GT" the distance it can cover at speed accross europe in comfort is amazing.

It's drawbacks are it can be a bit of an animal and in the wet it's worse and when you start chucking something that heavy around then my signature line on another forum is quite apt

"The Lotus Carlton is not tail happy – honestly - as long as you accept it has 377 bhp and 419 lb/ft of torque, is rear drive and has no driver aids, it's fine."

My problem with the car since I've owned it has always been the same thing, I have something else I'd rather drive every time and whilst it has 150 bhp and 200 ft/lb less in terms of motive force and will never ever get close to the top end of an LC but it excites me and every trip out is an adventure.....

[damiwi]

10 Pence Short said:

Because it was a bloody crazy idea and they did it and by god it made young men want to own fast cars.

At that time the M5 was just another 5 series.

It wasn't a crazy idea though. There was nothing original about putting a Lotus tuned Engine into a family saloon.

It was done in the 60's with the Cortina and the Escort. It was done in the 70's with the Sunbeam and in the 90's with the LC.

Young men have always wanted to own fast cars. I was wanting to own fast cars for as long as I can remember, I think the Lamborghini was the first Fast car that stood out in my mind and made me think one day perhaps.

and...

The M5 was never just another five series. That's like saying the Lotus Carlton was just a Vauxhall Carlton.

In regards to spunk... at least I've got some...

[damiwi]

[quote=D_T_W]

I really like this quote, gives a clear indication of just how little you know about the Lotus Carlton.

Several magazines have reached speeds in excess of 170mph in various LC, and i would imagine that is achieved by thrashing it. I don't see them getting much above 120 mph by short shifting at 4k rpm, do you? Also, could you tell me, what gear does your M5 reach it's max speed in? Can it pull to the limiter in 6th? Mine certainly can't

quote]

It's nothing to do with pulling to the limiter.

The choice of sixth gear ratio was probably the biggest criticism of the car.

It wouldn't pull in sixth gear, it was more like an economy over drive gear.

I wish for once somebody would just agree with me because any LC enthusiast knows this is a fact.

The E39 M5 pulls its top speed in sixth gear.
The E39 M5 pulls strongly in sixth gear because it has bags of low down torque, you need to remember that the same peak torque of the E34 M5 is reached at 1500 rpm in the E39, it's a far more powerful engine in all respects.

[B'stard Child]

damiwi said:

D_T_W said:

damiwi said:

For a kick off they struggled to achieve anything over 160mph and that was revving the nuts off because it couldn't pull top gear.

If you compared one with an E39 M5, the Carlton would feel like a bag of spanners.

Totally over hyped and over rated vehicle in my opinion that couldn't live up to the speel.

Rose tinted glasses.

I really like this quote, gives a clear indication of just how little you know about the Lotus Carlton.

Several magazines have reached speeds in excess of 170mph in various LC, and i would imagine that is achieved by thrashing it. I don't see them getting much above 120 mph by short shifting at 4k rpm, do you? Also, could you tell me, what gear does your M5 reach it's max speed in? Can it pull to the limiter in 6th? Mine certainly can't

I'm not sure why you think I know nothing about the Lotus Carlton. Let me explain my post.

I remember reading the motoring press about the LC when it came out, they slated the gearing, complaining that sixth gear was useless as a driving gear, it didn't have the power to pull sixth gear. Top speed had to be done in Fifth.

They had to take the car across to Europe to find a long enough straight to take the car to its claimed maximum speed because there wasn't a straight long enough in the UK. The car would get up to 160mph and then it was a long haul after that due to the aerodynamics and depending on condition, hence the long straight roads/tracks. Therefore it struggled after 160mph.

Oh please give over - they took the car abroad because you risk losing you licence attempting to max an LC on UK roads - attempting to suggest that it was because it struggled after 160 mph is utter tosh - I've maxed an LC several times and obviously because this is a public forum I would like to add that it has always been on unrestricted sections of the Autobahn......

damiwi said:

Drive an M5 then drive a Lotus Carlton, I know which one will feel like a bag of spanners but that's my subjective opinion having owned an M5 (e39) and knowing how it compares with contemporary vehicles, never mind an older car.

You still don't get it do you - thread title PH Heroes: Lotus Carlton

In summary

You've made your opinion very clear on how you "think" an LC will compare to an E39 M5 (thanks for that)

There is a thread a few pages back entitled PH Heroes: E39 M5 it badly needs your help.

As for a bag of spanners compared to a car 10 years newer - maybe you are correct but it's not a valid comparison any more that comparing a Ford Pop with a Ford Focus is a valid comparison

damiwi said:

The LC was hyped up in the press because sales were poor and to create publicity.

They only planned to build 1500 - this was cut down to 950 as a result of a recession that meant "supercars" were hard to shift

damiwi said:

The Carlton wasn't a great car and had a poor image. The Lotus Carlton had no race pedigree like the Sunbeam Lotus.

The Calton was a great car along with the Senator and the only image problem it has ever had was being a Vauxhall - Does the race series DTM mean anything to you at all - I have a sneaking feeling the Carlton was raced in that just the odd occasion but that can't be considered race pedigree can it........

damiwi said:

I know enough about the LC to have an opinion.

And I thank you again for your diligence in making sure we all understand it - I don't disagree with your statements about the E39 M5 being a newer better car or even an Icon or Iconic Car it's what you think.

Edited by B'stard Child on Friday 8th February 22:32

[Utopia]

damiwi said:

Utopia said:

damiwi said:

Utopia said:

Damiwi,
Yet again, you have completely missed the point. Its not about "How many hits" you can acheieve LOL.

The Lotus Calrton has earnt its place in the Automotive Industry, which makes

I posted the Google search information to demonstrate that the useage of the word Icon is associated with both vehicles therefore they are both described as Iconic.

But why?? BTW, I am not laughing at you ok - please chill out Its not a fair comparison this googling Bit like saying a search for a GOLF GTI is better than a FOCUS ST.

I didn't say one was better than the other.

I just wanted to prove that the term icon is used in reference to both vehicles.

There is no point in discussing this further.

The M5 and the LC are both iconic cars ... end of story.... for anyone to suggest otherwise is pure nonsense.

Well thats certainly a disagreement... M5 Iconic is not in the same league. And please refer to my earlier post, but I did have the M5 as a lease business car. So I do know the angle you are coming from.

But I think as someone else has mentioned, you may as well continue your own view on the M5 E39 Piston Head Review Forum...

[Utopia]

B'stard Child said:

Utopia said:

B'stard Child

Dont suppose you got any close ups of the LC body work by chance?

How do you mean close ups........

If i know what you want I can take some pics no problem

Close ups of the side, back, front spoiler and interior if possible?
But do not go to any trouble.

Thank you

[B'stard Child]

damiwi said:

It's nothing to do with pulling to the limiter.

The choice of sixth gear ratio was probably the biggest criticism of the car.

It wouldn't pull in sixth gear, it was more like an economy over drive gear.

I wish for once somebody would just agree with me because any LC enthusiast knows this is a fact.

If it makes you happy I'll agree with you in part because I'd like this thread back on track

It will pull 6th gear from 70 mph on 98 Ron fuel and 80 mph on 95 Ron

And it will accelerate in that gear up to around 160mph

It will hold it's speed in 6th up to it's max around 180 but you have to get there first in 5th

However it is an overdrive gear with a very tall ratio but as a result the car is much quieter and more economical at speed - there you were right

damiwi said:

The E39 M5 pulls its top speed in sixth gear.
The E39 M5 pulls strongly in sixth gear because it has bags of low down torque, you need to remember that the same peak torque of the E34 M5 is reached at 1500 rpm in the E39, it's a far more powerful engine in all respects.

It has a different gearbox and ratios - in 1990 most cars had 5 gears and some actually had to make do with just four - imagine that!!!

[drivin_me_nuts]

...other than German machinery (steping away from the minefield around this post!) were there any other cars around at the same time ( +/- 5 years) that had the same product idea as the LC ?