The End of the 'Punishment Pass'?
Discussion
The police would have loved this one if they got it on film. As I walked home from work last night, I noticed a cyclist approaching a junction. The junction in question is wide enough to allow cars turning left and turning right to be alongside each other.
The cyclist obviously wanted to go left, and was nearly on top of the junction when an impatient t
t in a car behind decided he wanted to go left too. However, he or she didn't want to wait behind the cyclist (as this would have taken all of maybe 5 seconds), so they decided to squeeze past as they were on top of the junction, then turn sharp left and cut right across the cyclist.
Absolutely idiotic driving and I'm amazed the cyclist didn't have his front wheel wiped out from under him. Whilst the driver was doing this, he or she didn't have a left indicator on, or any lights (it was about 5:30 pm). Car was quite new (not that that matters), but the driver was obviously one of these impatient morons that this sort of police action targets.
The cyclist was very lucky and the incident even made me stop and look (I could see what was going to happen).
The cyclist obviously wanted to go left, and was nearly on top of the junction when an impatient t
t in a car behind decided he wanted to go left too. However, he or she didn't want to wait behind the cyclist (as this would have taken all of maybe 5 seconds), so they decided to squeeze past as they were on top of the junction, then turn sharp left and cut right across the cyclist.Absolutely idiotic driving and I'm amazed the cyclist didn't have his front wheel wiped out from under him. Whilst the driver was doing this, he or she didn't have a left indicator on, or any lights (it was about 5:30 pm). Car was quite new (not that that matters), but the driver was obviously one of these impatient morons that this sort of police action targets.
The cyclist was very lucky and the incident even made me stop and look (I could see what was going to happen).
Previous said:
Ken Figenus said:
Was enjoying an advanced driving video https://youtu.be/SjFWKVYfkpE Note the cyclists behaviour at about 5'20". No concept of the term 'defensive' only 'progress' 
Thought the cyclists riding was okay really, although it can be a bit annoying for anyone in the clio drivers position.Moving out to protect his position for the left hander was fine for me as well as the cyclist is clearly going the same speed as the traffic.
Its annoying when cyclists do this when they are going about 15mph slower than the rest of the traffic though.
I thought the video at 6.20 was a bit more interesting, mainly as you don't see many motorbikes with sidecars about anymore.
Ken Figenus said:
Was enjoying an advanced driving video https://youtu.be/SjFWKVYfkpE Note the cyclists behaviour at about 5'20". No concept of the term 'defensive' only 'progress'
Can't see anything wrong with that cyclists behaviourjulian64 said:
Can't see anything wrong with that cyclists behaviour
OK seems a bit of a consensus. Personally I'd have elected for more safety space by not undertaking/filtering past the Clio just after it passed me and thus putting me in a position to be side swiped on any left turn or deviation to nearside by the Clio. Since the traffic was moving tucking behind the Clio or taking a safer position as he later does seems less risky to me. Also do I see an arm waving session as he is alongside Clio? Someone seems to have had a concern?
Maybe it's just me then but I did survive over 10yrs daily cycle commute in London with only one lift home in ambulance abd have lots of defensive genes due to years of motorcycling and no broken bones!
heebeegeetee said:
That's why I asked if you're confining your conversation to the UK because I would say that just about the entire continent of Europe shows you to be completely wrong.
Europe shows that cycling is not "only genuinely of use to quite a small number of transport users so it is very important to recognise that as a beneficial solution they can only ever go so far and that doing things that are detrimental to the more popular and efficient means of transport is not wise."
That simply isn't true, in Europe trips by bike can account for 10-30% of trips made, here it's 1-2% and that's probably only in London.
A recent visit to Netherlands and Germany taught/reminded me of quite a bit. Netherlands does as much motorised congestion as we do, but then their cars are stationary, on both sides of the road lots of people are passing by on bikes, *lots of people*. In the UK when the cars, buses and lorries are stopped nobody is moving.
When we were driving through The Hague to our hotel I noticed that there were plenty of women and children on bikes keeping pace with us, on cycle paths adjacent but parallel to our road, (and they were stopping at red lights too). But while we're sat in our car they were out in the sunshine, getting vitamin D, they were breathing fresh air, they were doing exercise, all at the same time as they're travelling. The motor car can't do any of that, so how is it more advanced in that environment? When we got to our hotel we struggled to park, but those on bikes just dropped their stands down, locked up and were off. Again, far superior in that environment.
Of course our car had carried us and our luggage from UK to Germany to Netherlands which obviously the bike can't do (not in that timescale anyway) but once we parked our car at the hotel it didn't move for the next few days, because it was the worst option of travel into and around the city.
You can't take cars into the Hague city centre without quite a bit of hassle and expense - there's nowhere to put them for a start, the reason we stayed at the coast nearby was none of the good hotels in the city centre have car parking (or extremely little and expensive), but you can take like a million bikes and park them, and exercise at the same time.
There is no way the car is better in that environment.
You don't need data, you can see it for yourself. Go and see the sheer freedom and liberty children have that ours simply don't. Go and see how they can ride their bikes in complete safety, and when they come to driving age they have already been using the roads independently for 12 years possibly.
I think it's absolutely terrific to see and you take my breath (if that's not a pun) if you're suggesting it's all wrong and the way we do our school run (as a for instance) is much the better way.
If you want some evidence, here it is: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-t...
I'm expecting you to tell me that that's all wrong, in true PH style, but you cannot deny the evidence of your eyes. If you don't want to see it for yourself there's about a bazillion videos on Youtube, it's not possible for them all to be wrong.
A very good post.Europe shows that cycling is not "only genuinely of use to quite a small number of transport users so it is very important to recognise that as a beneficial solution they can only ever go so far and that doing things that are detrimental to the more popular and efficient means of transport is not wise."
That simply isn't true, in Europe trips by bike can account for 10-30% of trips made, here it's 1-2% and that's probably only in London.
A recent visit to Netherlands and Germany taught/reminded me of quite a bit. Netherlands does as much motorised congestion as we do, but then their cars are stationary, on both sides of the road lots of people are passing by on bikes, *lots of people*. In the UK when the cars, buses and lorries are stopped nobody is moving.
When we were driving through The Hague to our hotel I noticed that there were plenty of women and children on bikes keeping pace with us, on cycle paths adjacent but parallel to our road, (and they were stopping at red lights too). But while we're sat in our car they were out in the sunshine, getting vitamin D, they were breathing fresh air, they were doing exercise, all at the same time as they're travelling. The motor car can't do any of that, so how is it more advanced in that environment? When we got to our hotel we struggled to park, but those on bikes just dropped their stands down, locked up and were off. Again, far superior in that environment.
Of course our car had carried us and our luggage from UK to Germany to Netherlands which obviously the bike can't do (not in that timescale anyway) but once we parked our car at the hotel it didn't move for the next few days, because it was the worst option of travel into and around the city.
You can't take cars into the Hague city centre without quite a bit of hassle and expense - there's nowhere to put them for a start, the reason we stayed at the coast nearby was none of the good hotels in the city centre have car parking (or extremely little and expensive), but you can take like a million bikes and park them, and exercise at the same time.
There is no way the car is better in that environment.
You don't need data, you can see it for yourself. Go and see the sheer freedom and liberty children have that ours simply don't. Go and see how they can ride their bikes in complete safety, and when they come to driving age they have already been using the roads independently for 12 years possibly.
I think it's absolutely terrific to see and you take my breath (if that's not a pun) if you're suggesting it's all wrong and the way we do our school run (as a for instance) is much the better way.
If you want some evidence, here it is: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-t...
I'm expecting you to tell me that that's all wrong, in true PH style, but you cannot deny the evidence of your eyes. If you don't want to see it for yourself there's about a bazillion videos on Youtube, it's not possible for them all to be wrong.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 2nd November 08:50
Sump said:
From the guy who made the video. I disagree. You treat it as a single overtake, you should have enough room to be able to take it in one go. Abandoning your overtake and diving in between vehicles should not be considered an option before the overtake. Surely this is common sense. Who on earth is this person making advanced driving videos 
Maybe he's more experienced than you?Sump said:
"Hi, if you're intending to overtake multple vehicles, you shoukd mentally treat each vehicle as a single overtake, tather than treating the line of vehicles as a single overtake. Weigh up the first overtake, move sideways to look and then if the first one is on, start to accelerate. Keep looking to the horizon, weighing up whether anything is going to come into view and be ready to pull back into a gap between vehicles if necessary. Don't accelerate up to an excessively high speed - keeping your speed to a reasonable level means it'll be easier to pull into a gap between vehicles if you need to return to the nearside.?"
From the guy who made the video. I disagree. You treat it as a single overtake, you should have enough room to be able to take it in one go. Abandoning your overtake and diving in between vehicles should not be considered an option before the overtake. Surely this is common sense. Who on earth is this person making advanced driving videos
You should have a search of PH; Reg is a PH Treasure From the guy who made the video. I disagree. You treat it as a single overtake, you should have enough room to be able to take it in one go. Abandoning your overtake and diving in between vehicles should not be considered an option before the overtake. Surely this is common sense. Who on earth is this person making advanced driving videos
DonkeyApple said:
Again, the importance of trying to take mainland European data and cite it as where we could be doesn't take into account key data that really does have a massive impact. You need to start looking a social cohesion, employment types, topography just for starters before you can say whether 15% in one city is better or worse than 5% in another.
Eh? I'm saying that despite the reasons you cite for the bicycle being inflexible, they use them a lot more in mainland Europe. That is all. DonkeyApple said:
You also cite another sample of one. I could cite my own example of the fact that I simply have no need for a car and that a bike would be far less convenient than walking or the tube for me but samples of one are worthless.
The point of my example was that in reality I didn't need to move closer to work to start commuting by bicycle. It was just my perception that I did. It's not worthless, it's an example of how our thought process can easily become constrained by our perceptions.DonkeyApple said:
You mention moving closer to work. That is an incredibly relevant metric. If you look at where the bulk of the UK population work and then how far away they live and how regularly they change work then on that alone you can start to imagine some quite stark cultural differences between the UK and the mainland. Then you can also look at the topography, how many major U.K. Conurbations are relatively flat in contrast to the bigger geology of the mainland? Looking at the vital, smaller details and difference truly highlight how invalid arguments like 'look at some European cities' or 'our average journey is less than 5 miles'. The devil really is in the detail but in these threads the more militant views on either side are incredibly simplistic but drown out moderate debate especially as many people hold the base view that if you don't agree you have to be the opposition etc.
I think it's easy to look for reasons why we can't change. It's a lot harder to think, we need to change, how do we achieve it. Cycle, walk, get the bus, I don't care. But sitting in traffic jams on gridlocked roads in town/city centres is utterly stupid. It's a waste of time and it damages the enviroment and it makes city centres unpleasant places to be.Out on the open road cars are great, but in many other situations they create big problems.
I find a car to be an encumbrance a lot of the time, much as I love my car, it isn't the answer to everything. If I go intot he twon centre its generally easier to walk or cycled unless carrying a load of stuff, apart from the older couple next door (he is a very enthusiastic and prficient cyclist) all my neighbours drive in, they drive to the paper shop, the guy next door I have never, ever seen him walk past our house, they drop the kids off at the little scout hut thing by car, its on the road at the back of ours, 200 yards ?
Part of it is laziness, part lack of imagination and it is just convenience, it has evolved into this thing you do, people get so it is then hard to walk or cycle, so they use a car, its a self fulfilling prophecy , then they get given a car to aid mobility, ok, not saying everyone who has a mobility issue brought it on themselves but it seems a lot did, the number of massive people we saw over the weekend was amazing, was talking to a bloke at work the other day about cycling, he is pretty large, said he wouldnt cycle on the roads because they are dangerous, and being 25 stone plus isnt, manages to see the imminent danger from traffic but not the 150 pounds of Adipose tissue round his middle ?
I am in my car today, I drove the seven miles to work as am full of a cold, heated seats etc lovely but I dont get 14 miles worth of exercise, it cost me a gallon of fuel more or less I expect, first time in 8 weeks since I last drive into work.
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
Part of it is laziness, part lack of imagination and it is just convenience, it has evolved into this thing you do, people get so it is then hard to walk or cycle, so they use a car, its a self fulfilling prophecy , then they get given a car to aid mobility, ok, not saying everyone who has a mobility issue brought it on themselves but it seems a lot did, the number of massive people we saw over the weekend was amazing, was talking to a bloke at work the other day about cycling, he is pretty large, said he wouldnt cycle on the roads because they are dangerous, and being 25 stone plus isnt, manages to see the imminent danger from traffic but not the 150 pounds of Adipose tissue round his middle ?
I am in my car today, I drove the seven miles to work as am full of a cold, heated seats etc lovely but I dont get 14 miles worth of exercise, it cost me a gallon of fuel more or less I expect, first time in 8 weeks since I last drive into work.
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
J4CKO said:
I find a car to be an encumbrance a lot of the time, much as I love my car, it isn't the answer to everything. If I go intot he twon centre its generally easier to walk or cycled unless carrying a load of stuff, apart from the older couple next door (he is a very enthusiastic and prficient cyclist) all my neighbours drive in, they drive to the paper shop, the guy next door I have never, ever seen him walk past our house, they drop the kids off at the little scout hut thing by car, its on the road at the back of ours, 200 yards ?
Part of it is laziness, part lack of imagination and it is just convenience, it has evolved into this thing you do, people get so it is then hard to walk or cycle, so they use a car, its a self fulfilling prophecy , then they get given a car to aid mobility, ok, not saying everyone who has a mobility issue brought it on themselves but it seems a lot did, the number of massive people we saw over the weekend was amazing, was talking to a bloke at work the other day about cycling, he is pretty large, said he wouldnt cycle on the roads because they are dangerous, and being 25 stone plus isnt, manages to see the imminent danger from traffic but not the 150 pounds of Adipose tissue round his middle ?
I am in my car today, I drove the seven miles to work as am full of a cold, heated seats etc lovely but I dont get 14 miles worth of exercise, it cost me a gallon of fuel more or less I expect, first time in 8 weeks since I last drive into work.
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
Part of it is laziness, part lack of imagination and it is just convenience, it has evolved into this thing you do, people get so it is then hard to walk or cycle, so they use a car, its a self fulfilling prophecy , then they get given a car to aid mobility, ok, not saying everyone who has a mobility issue brought it on themselves but it seems a lot did, the number of massive people we saw over the weekend was amazing, was talking to a bloke at work the other day about cycling, he is pretty large, said he wouldnt cycle on the roads because they are dangerous, and being 25 stone plus isnt, manages to see the imminent danger from traffic but not the 150 pounds of Adipose tissue round his middle ?
I am in my car today, I drove the seven miles to work as am full of a cold, heated seats etc lovely but I dont get 14 miles worth of exercise, it cost me a gallon of fuel more or less I expect, first time in 8 weeks since I last drive into work.
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
J4CKO said:
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
I think we are becomming a nation of extremes. Half of us are becomming more concerned about our health and half of us are letting ourselves go. I live near to a hill, Roseberry Topping, which has always been quite popular with walkers. However on a saturday/sunday morning it's almost as busy as the town centre. The same could be said of the local woods for walkers and cycles. However I took my 7 year old to his swimming last night and a significant number of the other children there were already quite fat.
J4CKO said:
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
I not sure it's that. I think that many people are quite time constrained and that getting into work in a reasonable time is quite a struggle. Ranting at the other drivers would be admitting that you were part of the problem, so it's easy to get worked up about cyclists. Anyone with half a brain can see that they are not part of the problem, but it's quite common to want to find someone other than ourselves to blame when things aren't how we want them. I tend to think that when people vent on PH about stuff like this it's more indicative of the fact that they are stressed out in general.You get similar rants about HGVs and I'm sure Tractors has come up more than once. Oh and don't get onto the subject of drivers who wish to drive 5-10 mph slower than them
There is a certain kind of person who thinks that anyone who does anything that they perceive to be inconveniencing them is in the wrong/should be stopped.
Devil2575 said:
J4CKO said:
We are getting to be a nation of soft arse, lazy fatties, at the weekend we went up a welsh mountain, it was empty apart from us more or less, got to the bloody Trafford centre, cant move, not complaining as dont want the countryside cluttered up with too many people.
I think we are becomming a nation of extremes. Half of us are becomming more concerned about our health and half of us are letting ourselves go. I live near to a hill, Roseberry Topping, which has always been quite popular with walkers. However on a saturday/sunday morning it's almost as busy as the town centre. The same could be said of the local woods for walkers and cycles. However I took my 7 year old to his swimming last night and a significant number of the other children there were already quite fat.
J4CKO said:
Ok, cyclists are a pain in the arse, I get that, but a minor one, I think a lot of the hate is based on guilt at being lazy and jealousy that people, of any size, are out there doing something when they arent.
I not sure it's that. I think that many people are quite time constrained and that getting into work in a reasonable time is quite a struggle. Ranting at the other drivers would be admitting that you were part of the problem, so it's easy to get worked up about cyclists. Anyone with half a brain can see that they are not part of the problem, but it's quite common to want to find someone other than ourselves to blame when things aren't how we want them. I tend to think that when people vent on PH about stuff like this it's more indicative of the fact that they are stressed out in general.You get similar rants about HGVs and I'm sure Tractors has come up more than once. Oh and don't get onto the subject of drivers who wish to drive 5-10 mph slower than them
There is a certain kind of person who thinks that anyone who does anything that they perceive to be inconveniencing them is in the wrong/should be stopped.
Usually because snooze has been hit once too much and generally a lot of people are on a mission to get where they are going and then sit doing not much, get home, ensconce in front of the telly, get to worm and read the Daily Mail website and get a brew, for all those in such a hurry, sometimes me included, how many are consultants on a rush to perform a life saving operation or some other other hugely important task, I cant be in that much of a hurry most days as I use a push bike !
Went driving on Sunday morning, only twenty miles, to watch the cyclocross racing at Wakefield. Saw a few cyclists out and about, didn't get held up by any of them. I did get held up by a large queue of traffic where the A642 splits from the A629, the traffic was backed up quite a way. I presumed that there must be some roadworks or similar further up the road, turned out it was a queue to get into the MacDonald's at Waterloo...
J4CKO said:
Time constrained ?
Usually because snooze has been hit once too much and generally a lot of people are on a mission to get where they are going and then sit doing not much, get home, ensconce in front of the telly, get to worm and read the Daily Mail website and get a brew, for all those in such a hurry, sometimes me included, how many are consultants on a rush to perform a life saving operation or some other other hugely important task, I cant be in that much of a hurry most days as I use a push bike !
Do you have children? You may not be time constained but many people are.Usually because snooze has been hit once too much and generally a lot of people are on a mission to get where they are going and then sit doing not much, get home, ensconce in front of the telly, get to worm and read the Daily Mail website and get a brew, for all those in such a hurry, sometimes me included, how many are consultants on a rush to perform a life saving operation or some other other hugely important task, I cant be in that much of a hurry most days as I use a push bike !
I cycle despite being very busy.
Devil2575 said:
J4CKO said:
Time constrained ?
Usually because snooze has been hit once too much and generally a lot of people are on a mission to get where they are going and then sit doing not much, get home, ensconce in front of the telly, get to worm and read the Daily Mail website and get a brew, for all those in such a hurry, sometimes me included, how many are consultants on a rush to perform a life saving operation or some other other hugely important task, I cant be in that much of a hurry most days as I use a push bike !
Do you have children? You may not be time constained but many people are.Usually because snooze has been hit once too much and generally a lot of people are on a mission to get where they are going and then sit doing not much, get home, ensconce in front of the telly, get to worm and read the Daily Mail website and get a brew, for all those in such a hurry, sometimes me included, how many are consultants on a rush to perform a life saving operation or some other other hugely important task, I cant be in that much of a hurry most days as I use a push bike !
I cycle despite being very busy.
Have three kids, have found myself rushing in the past to get them to a party or a swimming lesson, well the world isnt going to end if they are five mins late.
Rushing to get home, then watch TV all night.
A few seconds behind a cyclist shouldnt be the difference on a journey, generally it isnt, it is sat behind several hundred other drivers taking up a huge amount of space, a lot of which are driving only a couple of miles, if there were more cyclists, the roads would move better.
J4CKO said:
Yeah, there are sixty million people in the Uk, the impression is everyone is in a massive hurry, that generally isnt the case, when you sometimes think what you are rushing for, is it that important ?
Well I'm guessing that at most it's only those that got to work every day that are busy. Some people will be very busy, I am most of the time. Being on time is pretty important? Certainly being late for work is, or late to pick up kids from school, or rushing home so you can get a meal before you go out again. Even if what they are rushing for isn't really important if they think it is then being late will create stress.J4CKO said:
Have three kids, have found myself rushing in the past to get them to a party or a swimming lesson, well the world isnt going to end if they are five mins late.
No it isn't, but maybe you're rushing so you're only 5 minutes late? If you're 10 minutes late for a 45 minute swimming lesson that's almost 25% of the lesson missed.J4CKO said:
Rushing to get home, then watch TV all night.
Maybe, or rushing to see their kids before they go to bed? or to get home to make that regular 5 aside game, or to see your wife for 30 minutes before she goes on a night shift. Or maybe that just really want to put their feet up after a long tiring day and are sick of being the car for ages going nowhere fast.Or maybe they're just a
holes who do think they should never have to travel at a speed slower than they would like.J4CKO said:
A few seconds behind a cyclist shouldn't be the difference on a journey, generally it isn't, it is sat behind several hundred other drivers taking up a huge amount of space, a lot of which are driving only a couple of miles, if there were more cyclists, the roads would move better.
I agree, but if you blame the other cars then you need to accept that you are part of the problem. You are partly responsible for every traffic jam you find yourself in. It's a lot easier to blame someone else for the problem, so it isn't the thousands of cars trying to use this road at the same time that is causing the problem, it's the 5 cyclists.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff