Rapid estate cars v diesel estate
Discussion
ODJ said:
Its a poor choice of example , iirc power is restricted in 1st and 2nd on the aero so tyres last more than a week. Overboost takes it to 275bhp or 280bhp in 3rd onwards. In third gear at full tilt the 9-5 aero is remarkably rapid.
I think Welshbeef was taken advantage of by a predatory 9-5 as a youngster and still has nightmares.
The point made though was that the Aero was biased for low end power ie 30-70. If as you say it is limited in 1st and 2nd then early that isnt the case. 3rd gear when on it is 60+mph I think Welshbeef was taken advantage of by a predatory 9-5 as a youngster and still has nightmares.
Lol I can honestly say I have never been overtaken on an A or B road by any Saab of any kind.
At the end of the day as has been said it's 144 bhp /tonne when all is said and done. Which is 5bhp/tonne more than a Leon Cupra Mk1 180bhp which doesn't have boost limited I 1st and 2nd. So if whoever thinks that car is fast then fair enough yep it's fast i certainly do not consider it fast it's nippy.
I'd consider an RS6/4 E55 AMG etc fast cars these have C double the power and c75-80% more bhp per tonne. Much much quicker and what you would really want they all sound epic too and look very aggressive
Welshbeef said:
The point made though was that the Aero was biased for low end power ie 30-70. If as you say it is limited in 1st and 2nd then early that isnt the case. 3rd gear when on it is 60+mph
Lol I can honestly say I have never been overtaken on an A or B road by any Saab of any kind.
At the end of the day as has been said it's 144 bhp /tonne when all is said and done. Which is 5bhp/tonne more than a Leon Cupra Mk1 180bhp which doesn't have boost limited I 1st and 2nd. So if whoever thinks that car is fast then fair enough yep it's fast i certainly do not consider it fast it's nippy.
I'd consider an RS6/4 E55 AMG etc fast cars these have C double the power and c75-80% more bhp per tonne. Much much quicker and what you would really want they all sound epic too and look very aggressive
The OP isnt looking for a RS,M or AMG he's looking at T5's etc and in that company the 9-5 Aero is a fine contender and a comparative bargain. Take one for a spin, stick it in third and see what you think there is a reason so many have defended them in this thread and half the bargain barge "threadists" have one Lol I can honestly say I have never been overtaken on an A or B road by any Saab of any kind.
At the end of the day as has been said it's 144 bhp /tonne when all is said and done. Which is 5bhp/tonne more than a Leon Cupra Mk1 180bhp which doesn't have boost limited I 1st and 2nd. So if whoever thinks that car is fast then fair enough yep it's fast i certainly do not consider it fast it's nippy.
I'd consider an RS6/4 E55 AMG etc fast cars these have C double the power and c75-80% more bhp per tonne. Much much quicker and what you would really want they all sound epic too and look very aggressive
7:45 - sounds quite quick to me
http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-top-gear-revie...
My vote would be with a C43 or C32 (if you can stretch to it). Circa 20Mpg, though you only live once!
http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-top-gear-revie...
My vote would be with a C43 or C32 (if you can stretch to it). Circa 20Mpg, though you only live once!
When in a slightly similar position to the op, but with less (3.5k) budget, we went for a manual audi c5 a6 2.7 biturbo.. big, quick, averages 23-28 mpg usually, ( higher is possible on very long, sedate motorway runs, or uninterrupted nsl roads) far faster than any 'normal' looking estate deserves to be, and massive boot..
HiAsAKite said:
When in a slightly similar position to the op, but with less (3.5k) budget, we went for a manual audi c5 a6 2.7 biturbo.. big, quick, averages 23-28 mpg usually, ( higher is possible on very long, sedate motorway runs, or uninterrupted nsl roads) far faster than any 'normal' looking estate deserves to be, and massive boot..
You did well to find a manual! Great cars. bearing in mind the OP stated a £5k budget
I have had WRX estates and could get just over 30 mpg (real world) obviously not blasting but also not crawling - 33 to 35 on motorway at 70 - 75
I have an A4 Avante (2.5v6 Tdi) for 9 years and get 44 not driving slowly and close to 50 on motoway at 70 - 75
both cars can be driven quite quicky too with decent suspension / tyres
I have had WRX estates and could get just over 30 mpg (real world) obviously not blasting but also not crawling - 33 to 35 on motorway at 70 - 75
I have an A4 Avante (2.5v6 Tdi) for 9 years and get 44 not driving slowly and close to 50 on motoway at 70 - 75
both cars can be driven quite quicky too with decent suspension / tyres
Surely a lot depends on the kind of driving that you do.
If that estate is going to spend all its time stuffed full of kids, labradors and wife then I would think lazy diesel rather than perky petrol. How much of that 12k a year is going to be spent using the car's power or just wafting from place to place?
On the other hand, if there are going to be long stretches with only you at the wheel or you've got an understanding missus, then a big petrol engine swings back into the equation. You know you want to.
If reliability is an issue, then your £5k budget probably ought to buy you a newer Mondeo than an older BMW or Merc. Unless you're a dab hand with the socket set ...
If cost matters, then £5k of a diesel car is going to be cheaper to fuel than £5k worth of big engined petrol car.
Do you want swanky leather and chrome or roughty-toughty 4WD and wipe-clean surfaces?
There's no such thing as a perfect car. Because the car that meets my needs might not meet yours. Our main family car has gone from being a Mondeo to a small people carrier and then to a larger people carrier as our family grew up. And in a couple of years time I can see that the people carrier is going to switch to an estate or saloon when we don't need the extra space any more.
If that estate is going to spend all its time stuffed full of kids, labradors and wife then I would think lazy diesel rather than perky petrol. How much of that 12k a year is going to be spent using the car's power or just wafting from place to place?
On the other hand, if there are going to be long stretches with only you at the wheel or you've got an understanding missus, then a big petrol engine swings back into the equation. You know you want to.
If reliability is an issue, then your £5k budget probably ought to buy you a newer Mondeo than an older BMW or Merc. Unless you're a dab hand with the socket set ...
If cost matters, then £5k of a diesel car is going to be cheaper to fuel than £5k worth of big engined petrol car.
Do you want swanky leather and chrome or roughty-toughty 4WD and wipe-clean surfaces?
There's no such thing as a perfect car. Because the car that meets my needs might not meet yours. Our main family car has gone from being a Mondeo to a small people carrier and then to a larger people carrier as our family grew up. And in a couple of years time I can see that the people carrier is going to switch to an estate or saloon when we don't need the extra space any more.
ODJ said:
The OP isnt looking for a RS,M or AMG
Welshbeef isn't interested in that- he cares that AMGs are quicker than 9-5s.ODJ said:
he 9-5 Aero is a fine contender and a comparative bargain.
Impossible- he's absolutely certain that he's never, ever been overtaken by a Saab of any description on an A or B road, ergo they're s
te.ODJ said:
Take one for a spin, stick it in third and see what you think there is a reason so many have defended them in this thread and half the bargain barge "threadists" have one
I'll happily take him for a little go in mine & prove the point.RH
Having gone from an Alfa V6 wagon to. 95 Aero Hot Estate, the Saab is quicker. Much quicker.
250bhp (plus a little for overboost) in a £2500 89k mile fully specced (seats are better than the Alfas Momos, and heated front and rear!!!) Swedish bank vault (nothing could damage it), is pretty darn good IMHO. Oh, and it's more economical than the Alfa too!
(I had that Alfa 5.5 years with trouble free motoring and loved it)
250bhp (plus a little for overboost) in a £2500 89k mile fully specced (seats are better than the Alfas Momos, and heated front and rear!!!) Swedish bank vault (nothing could damage it), is pretty darn good IMHO. Oh, and it's more economical than the Alfa too!
(I had that Alfa 5.5 years with trouble free motoring and loved it)
Welshbeef said:
ODJ said:
Its a poor choice of example , iirc power is restricted in 1st and 2nd on the aero so tyres last more than a week. Overboost takes it to 275bhp or 280bhp in 3rd onwards. In third gear at full tilt the 9-5 aero is remarkably rapid.
I think Welshbeef was taken advantage of by a predatory 9-5 as a youngster and still has nightmares.
The point made though was that the Aero was biased for low end power ie 30-70. If as you say it is limited in 1st and 2nd then early that isnt the case. 3rd gear when on it is 60+mph I think Welshbeef was taken advantage of by a predatory 9-5 as a youngster and still has nightmares.
Lol I can honestly say I have never been overtaken on an A or B road by any Saab of any kind.
At the end of the day as has been said it's 144 bhp /tonne when all is said and done. Which is 5bhp/tonne more than a Leon Cupra Mk1 180bhp which doesn't have boost limited I 1st and 2nd. So if whoever thinks that car is fast then fair enough yep it's fast i certainly do not consider it fast it's nippy.
I'd consider an RS6/4 E55 AMG etc fast cars these have C double the power and c75-80% more bhp per tonne. Much much quicker and what you would really want they all sound epic too and look very aggressive
They are arse twitchingly quick in a real world 30mph -> overtake scenario.
If someone says they aren't it's either broken or been fed 95 Ron petrol. Mine would fly on the good stuff but be significantly blunted when my wife used to fill up with regular given she has no fookin idea.
dave_s13 said:
I used to have a 54plate 95 aero manual.
They are arse twitchingly quick in a real world 30mph -> overtake scenario.
If someone says they aren't it's either broken or been fed 95 Ron petrol. Mine would fly on the good stuff but be significantly blunted when my wife used to fill up with regular given she has no fookin idea.
Its 144bhp per tonne that is a fact. They are arse twitchingly quick in a real world 30mph -> overtake scenario.
If someone says they aren't it's either broken or been fed 95 Ron petrol. Mine would fly on the good stuff but be significantly blunted when my wife used to fill up with regular given she has no fookin idea.
Now to you that may be arse twitchingly fast but it really isn't.
Remember a Leon Curpa 1.8turbo with 180bhp has 139bhp per tonne that isn't fast at all it's nippy.
A fiat coupe is 170bhp per tonne that is a quick car but has nearly 30bhp per tonne more than the Saab which is a step
so the solution is....
Don't read the post : go and buy a C63 AMG or and RS6 or perhaps a Veyron (i think they are faster than a saab? per tonne)
or...
read the post: I would say the passat, its a fine car, I have only driven the Diesel so cant say it was fast, but I am sure the petrol would keep you entertained.
think more info is needed if you want a better answer i.e. what kind of miles are the 12k?
that is normally the point where a diesel STARTS to be more attractive but quote from This is Money
"A popular BMW 3-series with a 2.0-litre diesel engine would have to cover 17,018 miles a year over three years before it is cheaper than its petrol counterpart."
(ps. i realise this is quoting figures for new cars)
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-20...
Don't read the post : go and buy a C63 AMG or and RS6 or perhaps a Veyron (i think they are faster than a saab? per tonne)
or...
read the post: I would say the passat, its a fine car, I have only driven the Diesel so cant say it was fast, but I am sure the petrol would keep you entertained.
think more info is needed if you want a better answer i.e. what kind of miles are the 12k?
that is normally the point where a diesel STARTS to be more attractive but quote from This is Money
"A popular BMW 3-series with a 2.0-litre diesel engine would have to cover 17,018 miles a year over three years before it is cheaper than its petrol counterpart."
(ps. i realise this is quoting figures for new cars)
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-20...
zk407b10 said:
so the solution is....
Don't read the post : go and buy a C63 AMG or and RS6 or perhaps a Veyron (i think they are faster than a saab? per tonne)
or...
read the post: I would say the passat, its a fine car, I have only driven the Diesel so cant say it was fast, but I am sure the petrol would keep you entertained.
think more info is needed if you want a better answer i.e. what kind of miles are the 12k?
that is normally the point where a diesel STARTS to be more attractive but quote from This is Money
"A popular BMW 3-series with a 2.0-litre diesel engine would have to cover 17,018 miles a year over three years before it is cheaper than its petrol counterpart."
(ps. i realise this is quoting figures for new cars)
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-20...
The argument for diesel saving you money kicks in straight away if you buy second hand and spend exactly the same amount on each. So £5k worth of diesel car is cheaper to run than £5k worth of petrol car. You'd just have to buy a bit older or less well-equipped diesel car to equalise the difference in original purchase price from new.Don't read the post : go and buy a C63 AMG or and RS6 or perhaps a Veyron (i think they are faster than a saab? per tonne)
or...
read the post: I would say the passat, its a fine car, I have only driven the Diesel so cant say it was fast, but I am sure the petrol would keep you entertained.
think more info is needed if you want a better answer i.e. what kind of miles are the 12k?
that is normally the point where a diesel STARTS to be more attractive but quote from This is Money
"A popular BMW 3-series with a 2.0-litre diesel engine would have to cover 17,018 miles a year over three years before it is cheaper than its petrol counterpart."
(ps. i realise this is quoting figures for new cars)
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-20...
once said:
The argument for diesel saving you money kicks in straight away if you buy second hand and spend exactly the same amount on each. So £5k worth of diesel car is cheaper to run than £5k worth of petrol car. You'd just have to buy a bit older or less well-equipped diesel car to equalise the difference in original purchase price from new.
I fully take your point and driving a diesel myself, agree with you. However there is a decision to be made about what the OP wants, 5k diesel and 5k petrol can be very different in terms of mileage, trim level age and the diesel comes with higher maintenance and tax cost. I think that there is a total obsession with people wanting to drive diesels at the moment, and hate myself for being one of them.
in response to the post, for the money and the miles you do... buy a petrol, you will enjoy it more every day.
If you're leaning towards a wrx,I would try and wait for a Japanese import 'bug-eye' sti.It will probably be slightly out of budget,but has much greater scope for development (300 bhp with a simple remap) and comes with a 6 speed gearbox and forged internals.
I had a wrx variant (uk spec) for years and it was faultless.It also fitted a lab and Hungarian Vizsla without issue.
I didn't need a massive estate and it was perfect for me-especially when you change the headlights for some morettes!
Should be cheaper tax but probably around 230-250 miles to a tank of v power.
Not mine,but you get the idea...
I had a wrx variant (uk spec) for years and it was faultless.It also fitted a lab and Hungarian Vizsla without issue.
I didn't need a massive estate and it was perfect for me-especially when you change the headlights for some morettes!
Should be cheaper tax but probably around 230-250 miles to a tank of v power.
Not mine,but you get the idea...
I have no idea why he keeps comparing it to a Seat Leon 20v T.
By the figures I have:
Saab 9-5 Aero - 250bhp, 1524kg = 164 bhp/ton
Seat Leon 20v T - 180bhp, 1308kg = 138 bhp/ton
The Saab also wipes the floor in the 0-60 dash, 6.5 against 7.7. The Saab doesn't really hit its stride until 40mph so I imagine the 0-100 dash would be an embarrassment for the Seat.
Torque figures are also generally more important than bhp so the Saabs 260 lb/ft against the Seats measly 173 lb/ft would make it not only feel, but actually be significantly faster.
Not really comparable are they?
I also mullered a Leon once in my old Saab 9000 in the dual carriageway '2nd gear coming off a roundabout' dash, and that only had 230 bhp, but had 266 lb/ft of torque.
Also if we're going by facts and figures the 9-5 isn't far off your E90 330d automatic; 6.5s v 6.3s 0-60, 250bhp v 245bhp, naturally the diesel has more torque but in your own words the performance " blows me away" and they're not exactly fast when compared to an S4 or M5.
By the figures I have:
Saab 9-5 Aero - 250bhp, 1524kg = 164 bhp/ton
Seat Leon 20v T - 180bhp, 1308kg = 138 bhp/ton
The Saab also wipes the floor in the 0-60 dash, 6.5 against 7.7. The Saab doesn't really hit its stride until 40mph so I imagine the 0-100 dash would be an embarrassment for the Seat.
Torque figures are also generally more important than bhp so the Saabs 260 lb/ft against the Seats measly 173 lb/ft would make it not only feel, but actually be significantly faster.
Not really comparable are they?
I also mullered a Leon once in my old Saab 9000 in the dual carriageway '2nd gear coming off a roundabout' dash, and that only had 230 bhp, but had 266 lb/ft of torque.
Also if we're going by facts and figures the 9-5 isn't far off your E90 330d automatic; 6.5s v 6.3s 0-60, 250bhp v 245bhp, naturally the diesel has more torque but in your own words the performance " blows me away" and they're not exactly fast when compared to an S4 or M5.
Edited by Garett on Saturday 14th April 13:33
All very good questions, I will try and address them
Had a look at the A4 but it's not great value, ie a 129k 2.5 TDI 180 Quattro on a 53 plate for £5k. Autotrader says 35mpg combined so assume yours was the 163Bhp or 155Bhp?
Right, to put some more flesh on the bones I have compiled a shortlist from Autotrader. The Saab 9-5 is very interesting but I have opted for the 9-3 version as I prefer its looks and there are no 9-5's on AT Note the budget can stretch slightly.
Saab 9-3 2.8T
Quite like the look of these and would be fun to tell everyone the 911 Turbo thing
Alfa 156 3.2 GTA
A long shot this, an Alfa would scare me to be honest
Ford Mondeo 2.5T
Dull looking but lovely 5pot engine
Impreza WRX
My favourite at the moment I think. Say £3750 with a bit of bargaining and £1250 buys a lot of petrol
Legacy 3.0R spec B
Lot of car for the money but 23mpg combined is a worry, I take into account the post previously though about this.
Volvo V70 T5 2.3T
Brilliant value, assume ex trafpol at that price maybe although mileage low for that. Wouldn't choose a white one.
Vectra VXR
Lovely car, this stretches the budget a bit too far really but at 38k miles it would be tempting. Must be remapped too as ad states 280Bhp
Very interesting comments about the JDM WRX - could be tricky to track one down but having a 6 speed box would presumably balance the economy versus the extra power it has?
once said:
Surely a lot depends on the kind of driving that you do.
If that estate is going to spend all its time stuffed full of kids, labradors and wife then I would think lazy diesel rather than perky petrol. How much of that 12k a year is going to be spent using the car's power or just wafting from place to place?
I would say that 8k miles p.a will be going to and from work which is a mix of 3 miles quietish town roads and 12 miles DC each way. Plus a few miles here and there popping out at lunch. The remaining 4k will be general running around, driving places to take the dogs, to the coast, on holidays/short breaks etc. If that estate is going to spend all its time stuffed full of kids, labradors and wife then I would think lazy diesel rather than perky petrol. How much of that 12k a year is going to be spent using the car's power or just wafting from place to place?
once said:
On the other hand, if there are going to be long stretches with only you at the wheel or you've got an understanding missus, then a big petrol engine swings back into the equation. You know you want to.
No kids, no wife and the lady passenger in question is definitely NOT understanding when it comes to rapid driving so cruise mode would certainly have to be on rather than hoon mode! I can live with this (probably!).once said:
If reliability is an issue, then your £5k budget probably ought to buy you a newer Mondeo than an older BMW or Merc. Unless you're a dab hand with the socket set ...
Reliability is an issue and I can change a wheel/wipers but that's about it once said:
If cost matters, then £5k of a diesel car is going to be cheaper to fuel than £5k worth of big engined petrol car.
I'm coming from a diesel car which averaged 37mpg which I suppose is probably equivalent to 34mpg in a petrol due to the fuel price difference, that's how I'm justifying it anyway once said:
Do you want swanky leather and chrome or roughty-toughty 4WD and wipe-clean surfaces?
Ideally both! Leather/plush interior would be great but I also love the 'hooligan' look of the WRX/VXR.once said:
There's no such thing as a perfect car. Because the car that meets my needs might not meet yours. Our main family car has gone from being a Mondeo to a small people carrier and then to a larger people carrier as our family grew up. And in a couple of years time I can see that the people carrier is going to switch to an estate or saloon when we don't need the extra space any more.
The space is purely for the dogs really, I do no other load-lugging as such.magpies said:
I have had WRX estates and could get just over 30 mpg (real world) obviously not blasting but also not crawling - 33 to 35 on motorway at 70 - 75
I have an A4 Avante (2.5v6 Tdi) for 9 years and get 44 not driving slowly and close to 50 on motoway at 70 - 75
This is good news on the WRX front, I had a UK turbo2000 but I'm afraid I used to get <25mpg per tank due to enthusiastic driving I have an A4 Avante (2.5v6 Tdi) for 9 years and get 44 not driving slowly and close to 50 on motoway at 70 - 75
Had a look at the A4 but it's not great value, ie a 129k 2.5 TDI 180 Quattro on a 53 plate for £5k. Autotrader says 35mpg combined so assume yours was the 163Bhp or 155Bhp?
Right, to put some more flesh on the bones I have compiled a shortlist from Autotrader. The Saab 9-5 is very interesting but I have opted for the 9-3 version as I prefer its looks and there are no 9-5's on AT
Note the budget can stretch slightly.Saab 9-3 2.8T
Quite like the look of these and would be fun to tell everyone the 911 Turbo thing
Alfa 156 3.2 GTA
A long shot this, an Alfa would scare me to be honest
Ford Mondeo 2.5T
Dull looking but lovely 5pot engine
Impreza WRX
My favourite at the moment I think. Say £3750 with a bit of bargaining and £1250 buys a lot of petrol
Legacy 3.0R spec B
Lot of car for the money but 23mpg combined is a worry, I take into account the post previously though about this.
Volvo V70 T5 2.3T
Brilliant value, assume ex trafpol at that price maybe although mileage low for that. Wouldn't choose a white one.
Vectra VXR
Lovely car, this stretches the budget a bit too far really but at 38k miles it would be tempting. Must be remapped too as ad states 280Bhp
Very interesting comments about the JDM WRX - could be tricky to track one down but having a 6 speed box would presumably balance the economy versus the extra power it has?
Welshbeef said:
Luke. said:
Come again?
...irrelevant babble...I like to think of myself as being a little better than the Victorians who paid a penny to visit the asylum, but I actually rather enjoyed reading your posts.
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