RE: Modified cars safe, for now.
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
In summary:-
The draft Regulation is mainly about an EU minimum standard for roadworthiness testing.
It is not mainly about modifications, or classic cars.
The draft regulation will not prevent all modifications.
It will regulate modifications which affect safety or environmental characteristics.
It will allow for testing of modifications.
It will allow for testing by reference to national legislation.
It will create a new and limited category of historic vehicles, which will not require testing.
This will not effect UK road tax rules.
Those are a matter for the UK.
Many or even most classic cars will need testing, but will be tested by the standards applicable when they were new.
Note that "historic" and "classic" are not legal terms at present, save that historic has a limited meaning in the UK for road tax purposes, and MOT exemption).
There remains uncertainty because parts of the draft Regulation and Annexes are ambiguous, and some local rules will be in place in any event.
There is reportedly no budget to implement this (masermartin's good point, not mine). Large scale changes appear unlikely.
There may be hassle for trailer and caravan users.
The draft Regulation is in many ways poorly drafted, but it is not Armageddon.
NB: These are my opinions. and I may be wrong, but I add that I am a practising barrister with over two decades experience, including extensive experience in EU law.
So, in your opinion, apart from:The draft Regulation is mainly about an EU minimum standard for roadworthiness testing.
It is not mainly about modifications, or classic cars.
The draft regulation will not prevent all modifications.
It will regulate modifications which affect safety or environmental characteristics.
It will allow for testing of modifications.
It will allow for testing by reference to national legislation.
It will create a new and limited category of historic vehicles, which will not require testing.
This will not effect UK road tax rules.
Those are a matter for the UK.
Many or even most classic cars will need testing, but will be tested by the standards applicable when they were new.
Note that "historic" and "classic" are not legal terms at present, save that historic has a limited meaning in the UK for road tax purposes, and MOT exemption).
There remains uncertainty because parts of the draft Regulation and Annexes are ambiguous, and some local rules will be in place in any event.
There is reportedly no budget to implement this (masermartin's good point, not mine). Large scale changes appear unlikely.
There may be hassle for trailer and caravan users.
The draft Regulation is in many ways poorly drafted, but it is not Armageddon.
NB: These are my opinions. and I may be wrong, but I add that I am a practising barrister with over two decades experience, including extensive experience in EU law.
The regulation of modifications which affect safety or environmental characteristics.
- Just speculationg, but this 'could' be interpteted as Brakes, steering,suspension (Safely)
Engine, fuel system, exhaust system (Environmental).
The creation <In EU Law> of a <definition> of a new and <strictly> limited category of historic vehicles, which will not require testing, which has not existed thus far and can then be used in future legislation.
(A definition that FHBVC are now against, despite it being ratified by them via FIVA)
A bit of 'Hassle' for trailer and caravaners.
And the fact that it is poorly drafted and ambiguous.
We have nothing to worry about and can all go home safe in that knowledge.
"What did the Romans ever do for us????"
Thanks, James. I have strong reservations about how the EU is going, and the lack of democratic accountability in its institutions, but most of the bad government in the UK is still home grown.
Zody, the summary above is just my opinion, on a subject in which I have some professional experience. You can if you wish prefer the opinion of ACE, which appears to be that all modified cars will be banned.
You can also read the draft yourself, noting that it is just a draft, and form your own view. You should apply the usual EU law and English law principles of interpretation when reading the draft. I do not know if ACE know what these are.
I think that the proposal, if it gets through, may cause some hassle, but I don't think that it will lead to major changes in the current system.
Please read the other thread for a fuller discussion of the issues. NB: It is worth saying again that the proposal is a (not very good) draft, and is not set in stone.
Zody, the summary above is just my opinion, on a subject in which I have some professional experience. You can if you wish prefer the opinion of ACE, which appears to be that all modified cars will be banned.
You can also read the draft yourself, noting that it is just a draft, and form your own view. You should apply the usual EU law and English law principles of interpretation when reading the draft. I do not know if ACE know what these are.
I think that the proposal, if it gets through, may cause some hassle, but I don't think that it will lead to major changes in the current system.
Please read the other thread for a fuller discussion of the issues. NB: It is worth saying again that the proposal is a (not very good) draft, and is not set in stone.
Breadvan72 said:
Nice swerve to migrant bashing! I go to Court for HMG and get illegal immigrants chucked out, quite often. What do you do about problems facing the UK? Moan on websites, maybe?
Could you perhaps find a way to take, say, France (or indeed almost every other mainland European country) to court for not fulfilling their obligations as regards asylum and immigration, which in turn create much of the problem you clearly work hard to they to solve?Do not believe all that you read in the tabloids. Germany, for example, has had a bigger problem with refugee claimants than the UK. Also, the Dublin Convention, under which asylum claimants are sent back to the first country that they claimed protection from, is enforced, and upheld by other EU states. I am not saying that the system is flawless, as it isn't, but, as with most things that the press like to go on about, it is both more complex and less outrageous than the press suggests.
My My.. And we trust the DfT don't we, so we can put away the tin hats.
Until the next time.... When perhaps no one notices and there isn't so much fuss or activity when these bits of legislation finally see the light of day. Proposal or otherwise peeps, you don't put on a condom unless you gonna f
k!
Until the next time.... When perhaps no one notices and there isn't so much fuss or activity when these bits of legislation finally see the light of day. Proposal or otherwise peeps, you don't put on a condom unless you gonna f
k!I am probably perceived as the original troublemaker, scaremonger, disaster forecaster, having been on this crusade since Dec 1989 (yes that’s correct 23 years) but not without due cause. I just happen to be in a unique position, being a fully qualified Automobile Engineer and having operated for 12years an auto service & repair facility in Frankfurt is Maine Germany.
That is right in the heart of TUV country, where all this EU regulation was born, you can argue about the new reg’s to your hearts content but then ask Holland & Belgium what they got in their harmonisation of EU vehicle testing package and listen too the fury in Turkey now that the population has discovered what they are stuck with as a result of applying to join the EU, imposed as one of the conditions of entry no doubt?
Having spent hours standing in line at testing stations over my 12year involvement and hours at VW HQ at Wolfsburg Bruwnschwig FRG in the archives attempting to obtain original documents in order to meet the requirements of the test inspectors and complete the test. I must say VW GMBH were wonderfully co-operative and extremely helpful but don’t expect that from: - Rover/ MG, Rootes group, Talbot, Reliant and many others out of business. I can remember when we had 150 Kit-Car manufacturers in GB (heaven help you guy’s)
You can discuss the legal implications and other topics until the cows come in, but in the final analyzes it all comes down to how the inspectors on the workshop floor view the reg’s and have the ability to apply them in your favour .From my experience when the going gets tough and there is a difference of opinion they always take a self protective attitude and refer you to a higher authority. Basically that means the onus is on you to provide certified documentary proof thereby absolving them from any decision… This invariably costs you real money and in the final “end station “the senior inspector can refuse to test and withdraw your registration. That is the prerogative of a “Meister”
Because there are some “black holes” in this very badly presented draft which can leave you in limbo land it is imperative that it is halted now !!, taken apart and customized to suit the British motoring establishment by talented/experienced professionals (like BV72 with help of an equivalently qualified engineer )
That is right in the heart of TUV country, where all this EU regulation was born, you can argue about the new reg’s to your hearts content but then ask Holland & Belgium what they got in their harmonisation of EU vehicle testing package and listen too the fury in Turkey now that the population has discovered what they are stuck with as a result of applying to join the EU, imposed as one of the conditions of entry no doubt?
Having spent hours standing in line at testing stations over my 12year involvement and hours at VW HQ at Wolfsburg Bruwnschwig FRG in the archives attempting to obtain original documents in order to meet the requirements of the test inspectors and complete the test. I must say VW GMBH were wonderfully co-operative and extremely helpful but don’t expect that from: - Rover/ MG, Rootes group, Talbot, Reliant and many others out of business. I can remember when we had 150 Kit-Car manufacturers in GB (heaven help you guy’s)
You can discuss the legal implications and other topics until the cows come in, but in the final analyzes it all comes down to how the inspectors on the workshop floor view the reg’s and have the ability to apply them in your favour .From my experience when the going gets tough and there is a difference of opinion they always take a self protective attitude and refer you to a higher authority. Basically that means the onus is on you to provide certified documentary proof thereby absolving them from any decision… This invariably costs you real money and in the final “end station “the senior inspector can refuse to test and withdraw your registration. That is the prerogative of a “Meister”
Because there are some “black holes” in this very badly presented draft which can leave you in limbo land it is imperative that it is halted now !!, taken apart and customized to suit the British motoring establishment by talented/experienced professionals (like BV72 with help of an equivalently qualified engineer )
Numeric said:
I do seem to remember when buying tyres in Germany I had to get the tyres that the car was TUV approved on - so if the company had only registered one tyre that was your lot.
But I could never quite square that with all the aftermarket wheels etc that were available so I may have got it all wrong.
Spain exactly the same regarding tyres,but you can get around it but it has to be registered on your log book.But I could never quite square that with all the aftermarket wheels etc that were available so I may have got it all wrong.
The majority of bike clubs have also been collectinng signatures to present to Government especially MAG, so it's not just us car people who have been worried about what the future holds for modifications.
Breadvan, can you help me understand where I've gone wrong here then please.
As I understand, the Consultation has already gone through.
Linked from the Roadworthiness document
"An open consultation was conducted over the internet from 29 July 2010 to 24 September 2010. The Commission received 9,653 responses from citizens, Member State authorities, equipment suppliers, test centres, garage associations and vehicle manufacturers
Method of Consultation
2 Directive 2009/40/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 May 2009 on roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers (OJ L 141 of 6.6.2009, p.12).
3 Directive 2000/30/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 June 2000 on the technical roadside inspection of the roadworthiness of commercial vehicles circulating in the Community, as amended (OJ L 203 of 10.8.2000, p.1).
4 Council Directive 1999/37/EC of 29 April 1999 of 29 April 1999 on the registration documents of vehicles (OJ L 138 of 1.6.1999, p.57).
5 COM(2011) 144 final.
6 COM(2010) 186 final.
7 COM(2008) 30 final.
8 Directive 2008/50/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 May 2008 on ambient air quality and cleaner air for Europe (OJ L 152, 11.6.2008, p.1)
9 http://ec.europa.eu/bepa/pdf/monti_report_final_10...
And then use the results from an EU only final consultation document here?
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/take-par...
As I understand, the Consultation has already gone through.
Linked from the Roadworthiness document
"An open consultation was conducted over the internet from 29 July 2010 to 24 September 2010. The Commission received 9,653 responses from citizens, Member State authorities, equipment suppliers, test centres, garage associations and vehicle manufacturers
Method of Consultation
2 Directive 2009/40/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 May 2009 on roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers (OJ L 141 of 6.6.2009, p.12).
3 Directive 2000/30/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 June 2000 on the technical roadside inspection of the roadworthiness of commercial vehicles circulating in the Community, as amended (OJ L 203 of 10.8.2000, p.1).
4 Council Directive 1999/37/EC of 29 April 1999 of 29 April 1999 on the registration documents of vehicles (OJ L 138 of 1.6.1999, p.57).
5 COM(2011) 144 final.
6 COM(2010) 186 final.
7 COM(2008) 30 final.
8 Directive 2008/50/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 May 2008 on ambient air quality and cleaner air for Europe (OJ L 152, 11.6.2008, p.1)
9 http://ec.europa.eu/bepa/pdf/monti_report_final_10...
And then use the results from an EU only final consultation document here?
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/take-par...
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