Hybrids - its a tax thing not an mpg thing isn't it?
Discussion
AnotherClarkey said:
Technomatt said:
The 'con' is you pay £22K for a Prius.
I only paid £10k for mine.ETA - and I didn't buy it to be 'green'.
Edited by AnotherClarkey on Sunday 18th August 18:22
Flawed argument. You can buy a Nissan Micra for £500.
Technomatt said:
Rather than loads of cheaper alternate green choices.
And we dont need another series of your yeah but, no but, yeah but what if you actually have £22K to spend and you have to have a petrol auto with Zero VED and the only other car in the world is a Golf diesel.
Haven't you got a greenpeace forum to annoy or maybe you have a save the polar bear protest to take part in?And we dont need another series of your yeah but, no but, yeah but what if you actually have £22K to spend and you have to have a petrol auto with Zero VED and the only other car in the world is a Golf diesel.
LooneyTunes said:
Garvin said:
I realise those who have already committed to hybrids and the like will not take kindly to counter arguments that they are not as 'green' as made out to be or will remain as financially attractive as they currently are.
It's a tempting assumption to make that "green credentials" and tax treatment are the main motivators, but neither featured in our decision to buy one. Would buy another, but that's a judgement on the car as a whole rather than it specifically being a hybrid.If you're so minded, you can read more about our time with the car in this thread over in the Merc section: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - on balance it's positive, but there's certainly scope for further improvements.
My 'beef' is that these vehicles are being marketed as either being hugely more environmentally friendly or being cheap to run.
On the first point they may well be more environmentally friendly but by how much - is it as big as we are led to believe? I have seen no real hard proof of the environmental benefits taking into account overall manufacturing/decommisioning processes and requirement for expensive and scarce natural resources (e.g batteries - have you seen how Lithium is produced and then turned into batteries! Highly efficient electric motors can use some exotic materials as well!), indirect effects of plug-ins and electricity generation elsewhere and the fact that they still churn out CO2 from the petrol engine themselves etc.
On the second point these vehicles are expensive in the first place and the claims for massive mpg figures are, quite frankly, not being seen by the majority of users compared with driving similar vehicles shod with small efficient diesel engines (and driven in the same manner). The VED and BIK may well be low now but my contention is that as more people move from the 'lucrative to the Chancellor' current vehicles to these currently tax efficient vehicles then the tax on hybrids will inexorably rise and the differential reduce significantly.
You may well have selected your vehicle for very personal reasons without reference to the above but I think you will admit that you are not in the majority and that most will select these vehicles on one, or both, of the above.
I'm sure that some do select a Prius for those reasons but I have never met anyone who has. All the owners I have met have bought because they provide cheap, reliable, comfortable and well equipped motoring.
The dealer I bought mine off had many private buyers who were on their second or third car, the previous owner of mine was the mayor of London (City not Ken/Boris) who used it as his personal run around.
The dealer I bought mine off had many private buyers who were on their second or third car, the previous owner of mine was the mayor of London (City not Ken/Boris) who used it as his personal run around.
jamiebae said:
With a normal driver they will never get close to published MPG figures, unless you do a very specific mix of A road and urban driving to maximise the regen braking and elecrric assist efficiency. Yes, there are people who get 60+ mpg from them, but these are the same people who achieve seemingly implausible MPG numbers from anything they drive, and it's effectively a self selecting sample - if you choose to spend your own money on a Prius (or similar) you are almost certainly someone who values economy above all else and will drive accordingly to maximise these benefits.
There is much to agree with in that. At the risk of pedantry, I'd suggest the figure was probably more like 65mpg than 60, mainly on the evidence of my wife being able to crack 60mpg in her hybrid Auris and her being to hypermiling what Bernard Manning was to race relations. For reference she used to get sub-50mpg out of my s
tbox 3-pot diesel Colt on the rare occasions she drove that. I, however, being one of your people who can achieve implausible MPG from anything, could tickle the stinking little rattler up to 80+mpg in the right conditions, just like I can my Prius. Garvin said:
I realise those who have already committed to hybrids and the like will not take kindly to counter arguments that they are not as 'green' as made out to be or will remain as financially attractive as they currently are. It's what forums are about though - being able to discuss/debate topics and consider other views etc. Just because counter arguments are posed in the middle of a mutual love-in on hybrids doesn't make them wrong.
I think you're probably right about the future tax prospects. Some hybrids have already lost their London congestion charge exemption. The CO2 benchmark will almost certainly be lowered for zero RFL (bringing most current hybrids back into having to pay at least something) and they may well change the company car tax ratings accordingly. I also think you're right that hybrids aren't as 'green' as the Hollywood lentilistas would have you believe, at least if you hold the currently fashionable view that the only environmental issue that matters is CO2 emissions. However, where you are almost certainly mistaken is in your apparent belief that most hybrid owners would give much of a s
t about either of those two issues. 
To clumsily paraphrase a traditional petrolhead saying; it's not about how
Roo said:
Great.
Another thread that is about to be reduced to inane drivel.
I don’t think so. The Prius is a good standalone product with technological innovation. You pay for it though on list price and alternate, cheaper and more effective options also exist.Another thread that is about to be reduced to inane drivel.
Something Prius owners or the Eco warriors seem to want to conveniently skirt around.
Garvin said:
Personally, I have no problem with hybrids. Indeed there are now some developments which are showing hybrids to have some distinct performance advantages.
My 'beef' is that these vehicles are being marketed as either being hugely more environmentally friendly or being cheap to run.
On the first point they may well be more environmentally friendly but by how much - is it as big as we are led to believe? I have seen no real hard proof of the environmental benefits taking into account overall manufacturing/decommisioning processes and requirement for expensive and scarce natural resources (e.g batteries - have you seen how Lithium is produced and then turned into batteries! Highly efficient electric motors can use some exotic materials as well!), indirect effects of plug-ins and electricity generation elsewhere and the fact that they still churn out CO2 from the petrol engine themselves etc.
On the second point these vehicles are expensive in the first place and the claims for massive mpg figures are, quite frankly, not being seen by the majority of users compared with driving similar vehicles shod with small efficient diesel engines (and driven in the same manner). The VED and BIK may well be low now but my contention is that as more people move from the 'lucrative to the Chancellor' current vehicles to these currently tax efficient vehicles then the tax on hybrids will inexorably rise and the differential reduce significantly.
You may well have selected your vehicle for very personal reasons without reference to the above but I think you will admit that you are not in the majority and that most will select these vehicles on one, or both, of the above.
I'd agree with much of that - and indeed share your frustration in the way you see some Priuses (or similar) absolutely thrashing along in a manner that does bring into question their economy. My gut feeling is that, whilst BIK/congestion zone may be a factor, corporate fleet policies may also play a part.My 'beef' is that these vehicles are being marketed as either being hugely more environmentally friendly or being cheap to run.
On the first point they may well be more environmentally friendly but by how much - is it as big as we are led to believe? I have seen no real hard proof of the environmental benefits taking into account overall manufacturing/decommisioning processes and requirement for expensive and scarce natural resources (e.g batteries - have you seen how Lithium is produced and then turned into batteries! Highly efficient electric motors can use some exotic materials as well!), indirect effects of plug-ins and electricity generation elsewhere and the fact that they still churn out CO2 from the petrol engine themselves etc.
On the second point these vehicles are expensive in the first place and the claims for massive mpg figures are, quite frankly, not being seen by the majority of users compared with driving similar vehicles shod with small efficient diesel engines (and driven in the same manner). The VED and BIK may well be low now but my contention is that as more people move from the 'lucrative to the Chancellor' current vehicles to these currently tax efficient vehicles then the tax on hybrids will inexorably rise and the differential reduce significantly.
You may well have selected your vehicle for very personal reasons without reference to the above but I think you will admit that you are not in the majority and that most will select these vehicles on one, or both, of the above.
FWIW I've been in Priuses a few times, wasn't impressed with them, and would never entertain the idea of buying one - found them cramped and, with virtually no boot space, impractical. I would however consider something like a Leaf as a "station car" (where the range wouldn't be an issue).
Personally, I think that Mercedes and Lexus are on the right track by using hybrid technology in a less overt manner to complement already decent engines and provide a modest performance/economy gain.
LooneyTunes said:
I'd agree with much of that - and indeed share your frustration in the way you see some Priuses (or similar) absolutely thrashing along in a manner that does bring into question their economy. My gut feeling is that, whilst BIK/congestion zone may be a factor, corporate fleet policies may also play a part.
FWIW I've been in Priuses a few times, wasn't impressed with them, and would never entertain the idea of buying one - found them cramped and, with virtually no boot space, impractical. I would however consider something like a Leaf as a "station car" (where the range wouldn't be an issue).
Personally, I think that Mercedes and Lexus are on the right track by using hybrid technology in a less overt manner to complement already decent engines and provide a modest performance/economy gain.
Is 446l really 'virtually no boot space'?FWIW I've been in Priuses a few times, wasn't impressed with them, and would never entertain the idea of buying one - found them cramped and, with virtually no boot space, impractical. I would however consider something like a Leaf as a "station car" (where the range wouldn't be an issue).
Personally, I think that Mercedes and Lexus are on the right track by using hybrid technology in a less overt manner to complement already decent engines and provide a modest performance/economy gain.
Bonefish Blues said:
You ducked the challenge on another thread to specify what they were on an equivalent size/spec basis. Do you want to have a go now then?
Not another narrow criteria, 'it has to be a diesel, auto type' comparison surely....You do have to realise not everybody is compelled to buy a car with such a constrained spec.
You might find a huge proportion of people don't even want an auto, or live in London, or drive a company car, or have £22K to spend on a car the size of a Focus, or when they do their sums have that eureka moment and realise they can get a similar new car for £16K and think why should I pay +£6K for an extra 15 mpg. Hello....
AnotherClarkey said:
LooneyTunes said:
I'd agree with much of that - and indeed share your frustration in the way you see some Priuses (or similar) absolutely thrashing along in a manner that does bring into question their economy. My gut feeling is that, whilst BIK/congestion zone may be a factor, corporate fleet policies may also play a part.
FWIW I've been in Priuses a few times, wasn't impressed with them, and would never entertain the idea of buying one - found them cramped and, with virtually no boot space, impractical. I would however consider something like a Leaf as a "station car" (where the range wouldn't be an issue).
Personally, I think that Mercedes and Lexus are on the right track by using hybrid technology in a less overt manner to complement already decent engines and provide a modest performance/economy gain.
Is 446l really 'virtually no boot space'?FWIW I've been in Priuses a few times, wasn't impressed with them, and would never entertain the idea of buying one - found them cramped and, with virtually no boot space, impractical. I would however consider something like a Leaf as a "station car" (where the range wouldn't be an issue).
Personally, I think that Mercedes and Lexus are on the right track by using hybrid technology in a less overt manner to complement already decent engines and provide a modest performance/economy gain.
LooneyTunes said:
Couldn't fit in short business trip luggage for two passengers without some needing to go on the back seat. Absolute capacity may have been OK in litre terms (I don't know) but I recall the boot being very shallow. Either way, it wasn't something I could live with.
The Prius boot is capable of carrying two large suitcases plus hand luggage in the 'shallow' bit, along with assorted other toot in the compartment underneath. Of all the many justified criticisms that could be made of the Prius, boot size is in my opinion not one of them!Technomatt said:
Bonefish Blues said:
You ducked the challenge on another thread to specify what they were on an equivalent size/spec basis. Do you want to have a go now then?
Not another narrow criteria, 'it has to be a diesel, auto type' comparison surely....You do have to realise not everybody is compelled to buy a car with such a constrained spec.
You might find a huge proportion of people don't even want an auto, or live in London, or drive a company car, or have £22K to spend on a car the size of a Focus, or when they do their sums have that eureka moment and realise they can get a similar new car for £16K and think why should I pay +£6K for an extra 15 mpg. Hello....
Some people just might want something about the size of a Prius in auto flavour with a roughly equivalent spec and good economy.
Tell the nice people what their better choices are please, so that they can avoid paying too much for this hybrid technology, as you consistently assert.
as·ser·tion (-sûrshn)
n.
1. The act of asserting.
2. Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof.
Colonel Mullet said:
LooneyTunes said:
Couldn't fit in short business trip luggage for two passengers without some needing to go on the back seat. Absolute capacity may have been OK in litre terms (I don't know) but I recall the boot being very shallow. Either way, it wasn't something I could live with.
The Prius boot is capable of carrying two large suitcases plus hand luggage in the 'shallow' bit, along with assorted other toot in the compartment underneath. Of all the many justified criticisms that could be made of the Prius, boot size is in my opinion not one of them!Bonefish Blues said:
Technomatt said:
Bonefish Blues said:
You ducked the challenge on another thread to specify what they were on an equivalent size/spec basis. Do you want to have a go now then?
Not another narrow criteria, 'it has to be a diesel, auto type' comparison surely....You do have to realise not everybody is compelled to buy a car with such a constrained spec.
You might find a huge proportion of people don't even want an auto, or live in London, or drive a company car, or have £22K to spend on a car the size of a Focus, or when they do their sums have that eureka moment and realise they can get a similar new car for £16K and think why should I pay +£6K for an extra 15 mpg. Hello....
Some people just might want something about the size of a Prius in auto flavour with a roughly equivalent spec and good economy.
Tell the nice people what their better choices are please, so that they can avoid paying too much for this hybrid technology, as you consistently assert.
as·ser·tion (-sûrshn)
n.
1. The act of asserting.
2. Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof.
Colonel Mullet said:
. . . . . . However, where you are almost certainly mistaken is in your apparent belief that most hybrid owners would give much of a st about either of those two issues. . . . . . .
Don't be so sure on that, it's a moot point! I know a few (well three, so not a statistically significant sample I'll agree) Prius drivers and their common denominator is how they drone on about how much better they are for the planet compared to my hedonistic garage and just how cheap they are to run compared to my extravagant fleet. They leave me in little doubt why they drive them.t about either of those two issues. . . . . . . Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff