Rise of the UK 'SUV'

[budgie smuggler]

300bhp/ton said:

And Isambard Kingdom Brunel always believed larger wheels on a train would make it more comfortable.

He was probably right for trains, for the same reason that 29 inch wheels on mountain bikes have become popular. The roll over bumps better and don't get 'snagged' so much.
However the same doesn't really apply to modern cars, since larger wheels inevitably mean tiny tyre sidewalls, reduced suspension travel and worse sprung/unsprung mass ratios - none of which really apply to trains.

[300bhp/ton]

Hugo a Gogo said:

Snowboy said:

SUV's are great cars.
They are just big estates with a bit of improved traction control.

except they are mostly actually quite small estates
which popular 4x4 has as big a boot as, say a focus estate? never mind a mondeo or a passat

But which popular 4x4's are the same size as those vehicles?

And which estates have the same amount of interior height?

Vehicle	Length
Ford Mondeo Estate 2010	190.4
Range Rover Sport 2006	188.5
Ford Focus Estate 2011	179.4
Freelander 2003	174.1

[300bhp/ton]

budgie smuggler said:

300bhp/ton said:

And Isambard Kingdom Brunel always believed larger wheels on a train would make it more comfortable.

He was probably right for trains, for the same reason that 29 inch wheels on mountain bikes have become popular. The roll over bumps better and don't get 'snagged' so much.
However the same doesn't really apply to modern cars, since larger wheels inevitably mean tiny tyre sidewalls, reduced suspension travel and worse sprung/unsprung mass ratios - none of which really apply to trains.

Well I can honestly say that a Defender 90 on 32" heavy mud tyres and live axles rides the country lanes and pot holes better and irons out the bumps better than my Camaro, Roadster or Impreza.

[AudiWurst]

daddy cool said:

I dont let 4x4s/SUVs out at junctions*

• the exception is when i am out in the proper country, where people have them because they *need* them. You dont need a 2 tonne vehicle to drive down Ascot highstreet to get a Starbucks, or to pick up Tarquin from school.

Who cares about need?

These people who "drive down Ascot highstreet to get a Starbucks or to pick up Tarquin from school", what should they be allowed to drive in your little world?

[Hugo a Gogo]

300bhp/ton said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

Snowboy said:

SUV's are great cars.
They are just big estates with a bit of improved traction control.

except they are mostly actually quite small estates
which popular 4x4 has as big a boot as, say a focus estate? never mind a mondeo or a passat

But which popular 4x4's are the same size as those vehicles?

And which estates have the same amount of interior height?

Vehicle	Length
Ford Mondeo Estate 2010	190.4
Range Rover Sport 2006	188.5
Ford Focus Estate 2011	179.4
Freelander 2003	174.1

what's your point here?

I'm saying they have small load areas, the main purpose of 'an estate'

[daddy cool]

AudiWurst said:

Who cares about need?

These people who "drive down Ascot highstreet to get a Starbucks or to pick up Tarquin from school", what should they be allowed to drive in your little world?

They are allowed to drive whatever they like. Im allowed to choose who i let out of a junction!

[whoami]

daddy cool said:

AudiWurst said:

Who cares about need?

These people who "drive down Ascot highstreet to get a Starbucks or to pick up Tarquin from school", what should they be allowed to drive in your little world?

They are allowed to drive whatever they like. Im allowed to choose who i let out of a junction!

What do you drive?

[Snowboy]

budgie smuggler said:

He was probably right for trains, for the same reason that 29 inch wheels on mountain bikes have become popular. The roll over bumps better and don't get 'snagged' so much.
However the same doesn't really apply to modern cars, since larger wheels inevitably mean tiny tyre sidewalls, reduced suspension travel and worse sprung/unsprung mass ratios - none of which really apply to trains.

It's not so much a larger wheel, it's about a larger wheel.

You can have Big tyres on small wheels.
Most SUV/4x4 use 15-17" wheels.

In fact - if you want to quibble between 'real 4x4' or Chelsea tractor; take a look at the wheels and tyres.
That'll tell you whether the car ever gets used on rough roads.

[2354519y]

Suvs are pretty much what keep uk car manufacturing going. People can buy as many land rovers, Honda crvs or qashqais they want imo

[300bhp/ton]

Hugo a Gogo said:

what's your point here?

I'm saying they have small load areas, the main purpose of 'an estate'

I guess there are several points:

1. They are typically smaller than estates, so you really shouldn't expect as large a load bay.

2. That they aren't really estates anyhow.

3. That despite in some cases less length of load bay, they nearly always exceed in load bay height, handy for tall objects.

4. Despite points 1 & 2, many actually still have large or larger load areas.

[bqf]

SUV's have lots of benefits, and here's why I have mine:

1. High Riding Position - lets face it, they are good to see out of, for kids mostly, but also it's useful to have a bit more forward visibility
2. Towing - great tow cars, as they are heavy but the CoG is similar to the tow load. The best tow cars are 4x4s/SUVs
3. Space - I have a Touareg and it's huge inside - enormous boot, great space for front and rear passengers
4. Safety - having 4x4 is a safety benefit on wet, slippy, icy, snowy roads. If you even come close to rolling one you're driving like a turd
5. Crash Mass - lets be frank, bigger, heavier cars fare better in collisions than smaller, lighter ones. It makes people feel safer, and thats important
6. Off-road ability - useful to all, essential for some
7. Image - big, high-ridin' cars make you feel good. Yee-ha.

Here all all the bad points:

1. Image - big, high-ridin' cars make some people think youre a tt
2. Costs - juicy, RFL, purchase and service costs high for lots of these things
3. Space - some estate cars have longer load areas

Like all cars, they have good and bad points. They can be enormous fun to drive off-road, and so I don't see why 'petrolheads' should automatically hate them. I race as a hobby and most racers have a 4x4 to tow the racecar, for example.

[Sticks.]

jmorgan said:

I don't care if people want to buy them. Free world.

But please, don't make up excuses like it is safer for the kids or I am higher up, the roads are crap blah blah blah. Just get on with it, no one really cares.

Quite. In fact, they're more likely to roll http://cars.about.com/od/safetyfacts/a/roll_result... didn't Toyota have to withdraw a Lexus SUV because of this?

Iirc there were some stats showing if you were hit by one as a pedestrian your chance of serious injury was much higher, mainly (iirc) because of the bonnet height. And a child is more likely to have serious or fatal head injuries.

Personally, a high driving position just feels unsafe.

Re better visibility, I wonder whether it's more a case of drivers not adapting to the prevailing conditions eg if you weren't so close you wouldn't need to see over the top of the car in front?

And if the visibility was that much better then perhaps so many wouldn't be so badly parked

[Hugo a Gogo]

300bhp/ton said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

what's your point here?

I'm saying they have small load areas, the main purpose of 'an estate'

I guess there are several points:

1. They are typically smaller than estates, so you really shouldn't expect as large a load bay.

2. That they aren't really estates anyhow.

3. That despite in some cases less length of load bay, they nearly always exceed in load bay height, handy for tall objects.

so you are agreeing with me?

Hugo a Gogo said:

Snowboy said:

SUV's are great cars.
They are just big estates with a bit of improved traction control.

except they are mostly actually quite small estates
which popular 4x4 has as big a boot as, say a focus estate? never mind a mondeo or a passat

[Snowboy]

A full size 4x4 is like an off road estate.
An SUV is more like an rough road large hatchback.

[otolith]

When traffic calming and poor maintenance make the roads more and more like ploughed fields, it's hardly surprising that people buy tractors.

[daddy cool]

bqf said:

5. Crash Mass - lets be frank, bigger, heavier cars fare better in collisions than smaller, lighter ones. It makes people feel safer

Unless you are in the aforementioned smaller lighter car, or indeed a pedestrian.

[W124]

There are freedoms to...

"I've worked hard and I can buy what bloody car I like, and my children/I are free from injury"

And, there are freedoms FROM...

"My child/I should be free from the threat of being killed by a huge, heavy car at normal urban speed"

It's a balance. Myself I'm generally a libertarian but I wonder about the bigger, huger SUV's like the GL and Range Rover. They cause utter mayhem around here. There's no way round it, literally. I do the school run, every day, and I note from the massive data of my experience that two big SUV's plus small road equals colossal, expensive and dangerous waste of time for others. It is my right to be free of this bullst as much as it is theirs to choose what car they like.

Also, what makes people think that the wheels and tyres of these cars are especially tough? - on a normal car they might be but the big SUV is extremely heavy. MB and BMW make a nice profit replacing suspension/tyres/wheels on these cars. They are just as likely to be damaged by the roads as any other car.

To me, the rise of the SUV is a symptom of the rise of cheap credit combined with the British obsession with status.

All IMHO of course!

[Snowboy]

daddy cool said:

Unless you are in the aforementioned smaller lighter car, or indeed a pedestrian.

I think some results have shown car vs pedestrian crashes to be better being hit by an SUV.
A car smashes your legs and dumps you into the windscreen, an SUV hits your torso and pushes you away.

Not that a pestrian will ever come out of a crash very well if the cars doing anything above about 20mph regardless of car.

[300bhp/ton]

Hugo a Gogo said:

so you are agreeing with me?

Nope, not at all.

For example a D3 is about the same length as a Mondeo Estate. I don't have figures, but I honestly don't believe the Mondeo has more load room and certainly not if you include interior height.

I also suspect the D3 has more interior space for passengers and lets not forget that it isn't a transverse mounted FWD vehicle, so has a longer nose simply to accommodate a longitudinal engine.

Other SUV's like a Kaga are shorter than a Focus Estate, although longer than the hatch. So they really aren't estate cars.

Focus hatch 363 litres boot
Kuga 406 (456 no spare) litres boot

So for a slightly longer than a hatch you get more space. And it's still smaller than an estate version.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Monday 11th November 10:30

[bqf]

daddy cool said:

bqf said:

5. Crash Mass - lets be frank, bigger, heavier cars fare better in collisions than smaller, lighter ones. It makes people feel safer

Unless you are in the aforementioned smaller lighter car, or indeed a pedestrian.

Thats right. Thats why I drive the big, heavy car and only walk places when it's absolutely necessary, such as 'everywhere in London' and 'when my car is in the garage'