RE: Chris Harris Vid: 911 GT3 vs C63 Black vs Vantage
Discussion
The Pits said:
Davey S2 said:
Evo did a twin test of the 997 GT3RS 4.0 against the 991 GT3 and it was no contest. The 991 murdered it on a tight twisty road.
They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
So either the 997 GT3RS was 'not all that' after all and the delirious fawning by the motoring press was unjustified...They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
or the 991 GT3 is somehow enormously faster and more capable than its power to weight ratio suggests and some of the more absurd claims for its performance are true.
Which of these is easier to believe? For the 991 GT3 to be as fast as some are suggesting is if it has a lot more than 475bhp.
The only way for a smaller car with a better power to weight ratio to be 'murdered' on a tight, twisty road is for the road to be very bumpy and for the suspension to be totally unsuitable for at that kind of road surface. Sounds like the 991 GT3 is a much better road car than it's predecessor but you can expect the tables to be turned on the circuit.
One day the 991 GT3 will be seen as slow.
t detector is reading off the scale.ClarkPB said:
Evo said:
Chris Harris, If Topgear ever come a knocking on your door tell em your busy.
We need you here.
Agreed.We need you here.
Another great video, really look forward to them!
That Merc makes me smile when I see it. But so love the Aston (in a different color). Could watch that video all day.
The Pits said:
Davey S2 said:
Evo did a twin test of the 997 GT3RS 4.0 against the 991 GT3 and it was no contest. The 991 murdered it on a tight twisty road.
They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
So either the 997 GT3RS was 'not all that' after all and the delirious fawning by the motoring press was unjustified...They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
or the 991 GT3 is somehow enormously faster and more capable than its power to weight ratio suggests and some of the more absurd claims for its performance are true.
Which of these is easier to believe? For the 991 GT3 to be as fast as some are suggesting is if it has a lot more than 475bhp.
The only way for a smaller car with a better power to weight ratio to be 'murdered' on a tight, twisty road is for the road to be very bumpy and for the suspension to be totally unsuitable for at that kind of road surface. Sounds like the 991 GT3 is a much better road car than it's predecessor but you can expect the tables to be turned on the circuit.
A Porsche person at the Silverstone expreience centre told the owner of a new 991 GT3 that when run in they are generally putting out around 500 bhp which is believable given Porsche's history of underplaying the performance figures.
The PDK box will also make a big difference as will the all new PS2 Pirellis.
It's just progress. Look at the gulf in performance between the Ferrari 430 and the 458 which replaced it.
BMCG said:
chelme said:
Great review from CH. I think, this is far more what I'd personally like to see - a comparison of cars on the road as well as track.
The detail of CH's feedback on the cars, especially the AM was impressive and from what I gathered, it gives more feedback and is more beautiful than the other two; it is equally fun to drive and has the stonking V12 engine note match. For me, someone more interested in driving to Italy via the South of France and back through Switzerland, this IS the car to have.
The GT3 seems great as a track weapon, but too hard and lacking in feedback through all the senses compared to the AM (although its engine is without doubt a gem).
CH chose the GT3 because, well, he loves Porsche GT3s -he has been involved in racing these cars in the past.
Fair enough, but the AM is arguably the more special car here, despite having the robot manual.
Having driven the yellow Aston featured..and owning a 7.2 GT3RS...the Aston makes a strong case for itself..the V12 is truly a wondrous, sonorous thing...and the Automated Manual works well..if you work with it...for instance, lifting/rolling on change up...the chassis ...even given the 1650kg..is surprisingly responsive...and communicativeThe detail of CH's feedback on the cars, especially the AM was impressive and from what I gathered, it gives more feedback and is more beautiful than the other two; it is equally fun to drive and has the stonking V12 engine note match. For me, someone more interested in driving to Italy via the South of France and back through Switzerland, this IS the car to have.
The GT3 seems great as a track weapon, but too hard and lacking in feedback through all the senses compared to the AM (although its engine is without doubt a gem).
CH chose the GT3 because, well, he loves Porsche GT3s -he has been involved in racing these cars in the past.
Fair enough, but the AM is arguably the more special car here, despite having the robot manual.
but ultimately that weight and age of the design...works again this very best of the Aston stable
the 911 has its roots in a 50yo design..but unlike the Aston...the VW has benefited from significant and sustained fettling/enhancement/investment..a true triumph of persistent engineering enhancement overcoming the original design limitations...you can recognise the DNA..but the expression of it has been well and truly nurtured.
...such as lifeless electric steering and fake sound synthesizers in the cabin? I recall CH once saying that the Porsche 911 had an 'honesty' about it...I somehow doubt he would, if he had any sense, repeat this now.
BMCG said:
Having driven the yellow Aston featured..and owning a 7.2 GT3RS...the Aston makes a strong case for itself..the V12 is truly a wondrous, sonorous thing...and the Automated Manual works well..if you work with it...for instance, lifting/rolling on change up...the chassis ...even given the 1650kg..is surprisingly responsive...and communicative
but ultimately that weight and age of the design...works again this very best of the Aston stable
the 911 has its roots in a 50yo design..but unlike the Aston...the VW has benefited from significant and sustained fettling/enhancement/investment..a true triumph of persistent engineering enhancement overcoming the original design limitations...you can recognise the DNA..but the expression of it has been well and truly nurtured.
A very fair assessment I think. but ultimately that weight and age of the design...works again this very best of the Aston stable
the 911 has its roots in a 50yo design..but unlike the Aston...the VW has benefited from significant and sustained fettling/enhancement/investment..a true triumph of persistent engineering enhancement overcoming the original design limitations...you can recognise the DNA..but the expression of it has been well and truly nurtured.
900T-R said:
Tap the GT3's weight and power into the Torquestats performance calculator and it suggests 4.0 s 0-60. Porsche claims 3.3(!). Of course, the calculator does only differentiate between RWD, FWD and AWD and doesn't take engine position into account, and the PDK shifts are ultra-quick apparently... but still there's only one shift in the 0-60 dash...
FWIW I thought the 997 GT3 4.0 RS - 991 GT3 comparo was a bit more nuanced anyway... yes in raw terms the new car was a lot quicker they said, but as far as which one provides the most rewarding experience it was a lot less of a clear-cut case according to the piece.
PDK and launch control..not that hard to swallowFWIW I thought the 997 GT3 4.0 RS - 991 GT3 comparo was a bit more nuanced anyway... yes in raw terms the new car was a lot quicker they said, but as far as which one provides the most rewarding experience it was a lot less of a clear-cut case according to the piece.
The Pits said:
While I am grateful for more footage of the V12 Vantage S, I think the crucial comparison everyone wants Harris to do is a back to back between a manual, hydraulic steering 997 GT3RS vs paddleshift, electric steering 991 GT3.
His view on the matter would be especially interesting.
I agree with you sir. I have driven the new GT3 in the wet on roads similar to those in the video, and while I agree with what Chris has said regarding handling, I believe he is not being truly forthright with the truth about the Gt3's steering. I believe its steering actually does not communicate too well in the wet and that it could cause trouble for a driver if when pressing on, you push that extra bit and you don't quite know what is going on at the front wheels. I am not alone in this conclusion.His view on the matter would be especially interesting.
Now I don't claim to know why Chris did not speak about the GT3 poor steering in the wet, but I believe he has not been totally honest about it. I also note Pits comment about putting the 997 GT3 and 991 GT3 together to learn more about what has happened to the wonderful steering; but I don't believe Chirs will do such a test, nor will he speak about the GT3's steering feel in any detail- I just don't now why he won't, but it is clear he has his reason. martin
Great video Chris
I watch this and so want the the GT3. Then I get to the point that Chris points out, on the road, full beans in 2nd or 3rd is .....we'll, seriously too fast. Then I remember my 997 GT3. The reason I sold it was because to get a buzz you needed to cane it, and similar to Chris's observation....hmmmm, licensing losing.
Sorry but too fast for the road and not enough thrills at normal road speeds. Phew , that saves me £100k I haven't got
I watch this and so want the the GT3. Then I get to the point that Chris points out, on the road, full beans in 2nd or 3rd is .....we'll, seriously too fast. Then I remember my 997 GT3. The reason I sold it was because to get a buzz you needed to cane it, and similar to Chris's observation....hmmmm, licensing losing.
Sorry but too fast for the road and not enough thrills at normal road speeds. Phew , that saves me £100k I haven't got
chelme said:
"the VW has benefited from significant and sustained fettling/enhancement/investment"
...such as lifeless electric steering and fake sound synthesizers in the cabin? I recall CH once saying that the Porsche 911 had an 'honesty' about it...I somehow doubt he would, if he had any sense, repeat this now.
It does seem like the Cayman is taking over the 'honesty' type status while the 991 goes into the electronic battle against the GTR ...such as lifeless electric steering and fake sound synthesizers in the cabin? I recall CH once saying that the Porsche 911 had an 'honesty' about it...I somehow doubt he would, if he had any sense, repeat this now.
chelme said:
"the VW has benefited from significant and sustained fettling/enhancement/investment"
...such as lifeless electric steering and fake sound synthesizers in the cabin? I recall CH once saying that the Porsche 911 had an 'honesty' about it...I somehow doubt he would, if he had any sense, repeat this now.
It does seem like the Cayman is taking over the 'honesty' type status while the 991 goes into the electronic battle against the GTR ...such as lifeless electric steering and fake sound synthesizers in the cabin? I recall CH once saying that the Porsche 911 had an 'honesty' about it...I somehow doubt he would, if he had any sense, repeat this now.
The Pits said:
Davey S2 said:
Evo did a twin test of the 997 GT3RS 4.0 against the 991 GT3 and it was no contest. The 991 murdered it on a tight twisty road.
They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
So either the 997 GT3RS was 'not all that' after all and the delirious fawning by the motoring press was unjustified...They concluded that the 4.0 was still a very special car but it had it's pants completely pulled down by the 991.
or the 991 GT3 is somehow enormously faster and more capable than its power to weight ratio suggests and some of the more absurd claims for its performance are true.
Which of these is easier to believe? For the 991 GT3 to be as fast as some are suggesting is if it has a lot more than 475bhp.
The only way for a smaller car with a better power to weight ratio to be 'murdered' on a tight, twisty road is for the road to be very bumpy and for the suspension to be totally unsuitable for at that kind of road surface. Sounds like the 991 GT3 is a much better road car than it's predecessor but you can expect the tables to be turned on the circuit.
A detailed painstaking and thorough improvement on what was a truly brilliant car the last time around. No surprises there.
The Aston is not dissimilar in that respect. Best Aston ever made IMO and in any colour other than yellow I'd say it makes a pretty damn good case as a road car even against the might of a new GT3, better than a Turbo easily. The Merc does very little for me. The CLK Black was the most disappointing car I ever owned. Neither one thing nor the other. Too heavy and slow witted to be a GT3 rival, too extreme to be a usable daily. Not for me thats for sure.
bigtime said:
What will a 991 GT3 do in 2nd and 3rd? I'd have thought about 60 and 100mph.
about 72 & 105 according to this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3pSghtKXsI
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