RE: Jaguar XKSS continuation - New York 2016
Discussion
Lowtimer said:
charlie7777 said:
virgilio said:
Can anybody confirm that these will NOT be road legal? I'd have thought the re-used VIN would be a trick to get them road-registered as '50s cars. With a fully new VIN I guess there is no way these cars can be made road legal anywhere in the world...
It would not be that difficult to make these cars road legal. You can use the Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) scheme if you’re making or importing a single vehicle or a very small number of vehicles. Small alterations from the original specs would no doubt have to be made but so what?The relevant code would be IVA, not SVA, for a passenger car in this category, and a careful read through of the IVA guide here would appear to rule them out in anything like the spec to which they are being built--
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-t...
It's "Normal IVA" rather than "Basic IVA" because they are completely new build cars rather than rebuilds or builds using components from previously registered cars. And as I read it, "Normal IVA" requires compliance with modern Euro-standards for, amongst other things: "brakes, crash safety, seat belt installation & anchorages, exhaust emissions (including CO2), noise and silencers and anti-theft protection" (page 12 of the IVA guide).
Looking at these regulations would not a Basic IVA apply? These state that ‘Very low volume production vehicles’ are eligible. (Low volume defined as:-The total number of vehicles of the family of types to which the vehicle in question belongs which are manufactured in the world during any period of 12 months falling within the period of 36 months immediately preceding the month in which the vehicle was manufactured does not exceed 300.)
This is critical because it then exempts compliance with ‘crash test’ regulations . All the other regulations are really quite achievable with a number of reasonably simple alterations. (as various small volume and kit car makers of similar cars demonstrate).
As you say Jaguar may not be bothered but it is an interesting proposition for after market
workshops.
(As it is Jaguar will no doubt farm out most of the manufacture of these vehicles to outside workshops.)
My concern over eligibility for Basic IVA is that the cars appear to fit none of the 10 categories of vehicle for which a Basic IVA is permitted, the list being on page 10. They are not amateur-built, they are not personal imports, rebuilds of historic vehicles (according to Jaguar's own definition that they are new), and they are not made using major components from previously registered cars. I initially thought the 'left hand drive' category looked promising, but under further investigation it appears only to apply to vehicles with a Certificate of Conformity, evidence of having been registered in another EC country, or some other badge of Euro-worthiness. (Annex 6, page 55).
The "very low volume production vehicles" category defined on p.51 also initially looks hopeful but is defined as something being from a manufacturer which has made 300 cars or fewer in any 12 month period over the last three years. At that point one might say "we've made only a handful of this particular model so that's fine then" but I believe "family of types" for Class M1 passenger car is interpreted as all the manufacturer's Class M1 passenger cars, not a specific model in the range.
Kit car makers and genuinely tiny firms can get round this either by being kit car makers (cars then eligible under 'amateur built') or if they are selling complete turnkey cars, then they are small enough businesses that they register 300 or fewer turnkey units a year. I assume that Caterham, Atom etc will fall into this category.
As far as I can tell, it genuinely was the intention of the regulators to prevent large car-makers from making new examples of cars that no longer conform to current regulatory requirements for use on EU roads. And that may well be what they've succeeded in doing.
The "very low volume production vehicles" category defined on p.51 also initially looks hopeful but is defined as something being from a manufacturer which has made 300 cars or fewer in any 12 month period over the last three years. At that point one might say "we've made only a handful of this particular model so that's fine then" but I believe "family of types" for Class M1 passenger car is interpreted as all the manufacturer's Class M1 passenger cars, not a specific model in the range.
Kit car makers and genuinely tiny firms can get round this either by being kit car makers (cars then eligible under 'amateur built') or if they are selling complete turnkey cars, then they are small enough businesses that they register 300 or fewer turnkey units a year. I assume that Caterham, Atom etc will fall into this category.
As far as I can tell, it genuinely was the intention of the regulators to prevent large car-makers from making new examples of cars that no longer conform to current regulatory requirements for use on EU roads. And that may well be what they've succeeded in doing.
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 25th March 18:09
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 25th March 18:10
Lowtimer said:
My concern over eligibility for Basic IVA is that the cars appear to fit none of the 10 categories of vehicle for which a Basic IVA is permitted, the list being on page 10. They are not amateur-built, they are not personal imports, rebuilds of historic vehicles (according to Jaguar's own definition that they are new), and they are not made using major components from previously registered cars. I initially thought the 'left hand drive' category looked promising, but under further investigation it appears only to apply to vehicles with a Certificate of Conformity, evidence of having been registered in another EC country, or some other badge of Euro-worthiness. (Annex 6, page 55).
The "very low volume production vehicles" category defined on p.51 also initially looks hopeful but is defined as something being from a manufacturer which has made 300 cars or fewer in any 12 month period over the last three years. At that point one might say "we've made only a handful of this particular model so that's fine then" but I believe "family of types" for Class M1 passenger car is interpreted as all the manufacturer's Class M1 passenger cars, not a specific model in the range.
Kit car makers and genuinely tiny firms can get round this either by being kit car makers (cars then eligible under 'amateur built') or if they are selling complete turnkey cars, then they are small enough businesses that they register 300 or fewer turnkey units a year. I assume that Caterham, Atom etc will fall into this category.
As far as I can tell, it genuinely was the intention of the regulators to prevent large car-makers from making new examples of cars that no longer conform to current regulatory requirements for use on EU roads. And that may well be what they've succeeded in doing.
Yes we will probably not know for sure until someone tries it. When I find a spare million I will let you know! The "very low volume production vehicles" category defined on p.51 also initially looks hopeful but is defined as something being from a manufacturer which has made 300 cars or fewer in any 12 month period over the last three years. At that point one might say "we've made only a handful of this particular model so that's fine then" but I believe "family of types" for Class M1 passenger car is interpreted as all the manufacturer's Class M1 passenger cars, not a specific model in the range.
Kit car makers and genuinely tiny firms can get round this either by being kit car makers (cars then eligible under 'amateur built') or if they are selling complete turnkey cars, then they are small enough businesses that they register 300 or fewer turnkey units a year. I assume that Caterham, Atom etc will fall into this category.
As far as I can tell, it genuinely was the intention of the regulators to prevent large car-makers from making new examples of cars that no longer conform to current regulatory requirements for use on EU roads. And that may well be what they've succeeded in doing.
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 25th March 18:09
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 25th March 18:10
On a different tack when we dump the EU..........
Once the lightweights or these SS are more than 10 years old they could be road registered in the UK without the need for IVA, as long as they pass an MOT they would be good to go.
It won't happen though, they will still no doubt be in glass cages without a mile on the speedo.
Ringing, who are these muppets! the cars were never completed or sold to anyone, and Jaguar were the original constructor so they are not replicas either.
Also if I wanted to build a new car and issue it with the same VIN as one of the continuation cars, I have every right to, and no one could prosecute me, it is purely an ID allocated by a manufacturer, the issue arises if it is used to register a car in a country where one with the same VIN has already been registered.
There are numerous examples of classics around the world all on the same VIN especially AC Cobras.
It won't happen though, they will still no doubt be in glass cages without a mile on the speedo.
Ringing, who are these muppets! the cars were never completed or sold to anyone, and Jaguar were the original constructor so they are not replicas either.
Also if I wanted to build a new car and issue it with the same VIN as one of the continuation cars, I have every right to, and no one could prosecute me, it is purely an ID allocated by a manufacturer, the issue arises if it is used to register a car in a country where one with the same VIN has already been registered.
There are numerous examples of classics around the world all on the same VIN especially AC Cobras.
Edited by PAUL500 on Saturday 26th March 12:14
Aston allowed several DB4Z to be made in the early 1990s. Everyone knows that they're not one of the originals, so why worry? They still command a major outlay to buy one, but not quite that of the original.
Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
Banks570 said:
Aston allowed several DB4Z to be made in the early 1990s. Everyone knows that they're not one of the originals, so why worry? They still command a major outlay to buy one, but not quite that of the original.
Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
Love him or loathe him Lord March is a canny businessman.Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
If he let's these continuation cars run it will annoy all the current owners and participants at the Revival who paid a premium for an 'original' car (even if they are Triggers brooms).
Given the choice do you infuriate 100 or so rich, loyal customers and risk a boycott of your very profitable event just to make 7 people happy?
Hand on heart ask yourself what you would do?
I love how the "No Blame No Claim" crew are heading down the legal wormhole of telling people "It can't SVA it! You can never drive it in Europe! You can never drive it on the road! It isn't legally possible to do this in today's ABS/Airbag bananas European legislation nightmare that we live in!!"
Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
People have been getting around this for decades. Most British cars exported to the US after WW2 were sold in partial dis-assembly to dodge import tax. The same way a BAC mono or Atom are sold in the US today. Back in the day they never came with assembly instructions so anyone could be accused of building cars. They were sold with dismantling instructions and you were told to read the book backwards.
As for the heritage palava of Lord March poopooing these new cars like the lightweight E-types well you find me a Lola T70 that is the same as it left the factory at Huntington racing at Goodwood today and I would be on the old codgers side. But he has a business to run and no one wants old men in Panama hats walking around a golf course like Pebble beach.
If you can afford a "New" XKSS then buy one as I would love to see more of these beautiful cars on the road.
The sooner I see what was a road going D-type, the XKSS being driven on the road the better.
Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
People have been getting around this for decades. Most British cars exported to the US after WW2 were sold in partial dis-assembly to dodge import tax. The same way a BAC mono or Atom are sold in the US today. Back in the day they never came with assembly instructions so anyone could be accused of building cars. They were sold with dismantling instructions and you were told to read the book backwards.
As for the heritage palava of Lord March poopooing these new cars like the lightweight E-types well you find me a Lola T70 that is the same as it left the factory at Huntington racing at Goodwood today and I would be on the old codgers side. But he has a business to run and no one wants old men in Panama hats walking around a golf course like Pebble beach.
If you can afford a "New" XKSS then buy one as I would love to see more of these beautiful cars on the road.
The sooner I see what was a road going D-type, the XKSS being driven on the road the better.
Maldini35 said:
Banks570 said:
Aston allowed several DB4Z to be made in the early 1990s. Everyone knows that they're not one of the originals, so why worry? They still command a major outlay to buy one, but not quite that of the original.
Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
Love him or loathe him Lord March is a canny businessman.Given that these XKSSs are to be built by JLR one wonders why March is so upset.
If he let's these continuation cars run it will annoy all the current owners and participants at the Revival who paid a premium for an 'original' car (even if they are Triggers brooms).
Given the choice do you infuriate 100 or so rich, loyal customers and risk a boycott of your very profitable event just to make 7 people happy?
Hand on heart ask yourself what you would do?
sisu said:
I love how the "No Blame No Claim" crew are heading down the legal wormhole of telling people "It can't SVA it! You can never drive it in Europe! You can never drive it on the road! It isn't legally possible to do this in today's ABS/Airbag bananas European legislation nightmare that we live in!!"
Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
That's because Morgan get exemption under the small manufacturers rules. Unless F-types start shipping with a picture of Jimmy Savill on the dash or the XE comes with a rabid wolverine in the glove box I somehow doubt they will be selling less than 300 cars a year. I'm sure the owners will be fully aware of what can and can't be done, but these won't be eligible for use on UK roads for a long time.Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
SteveSteveson said:
sisu said:
I love how the "No Blame No Claim" crew are heading down the legal wormhole of telling people "It can't SVA it! You can never drive it in Europe! You can never drive it on the road! It isn't legally possible to do this in today's ABS/Airbag bananas European legislation nightmare that we live in!!"
Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
That's because Morgan get exemption under the small manufacturers rules. Unless F-types start shipping with a picture of Jimmy Savill on the dash or the XE comes with a rabid wolverine in the glove box I somehow doubt they will be selling less than 300 cars a year. I'm sure the owners will be fully aware of what can and can't be done, but these won't be eligible for use on UK roads for a long time.Then a bloke drives past them in a 2015 Morgan 3 wheeler
RE Lord March - To my knowledge he has changed his tune since the Lightweight E program on Ch4 and would now let them race at Goodwood should the owners wish to do so. Realistically out of the box they won't be competitive; look at Adrian Newey's LWE for example - it has had a huge amount of work to make it better in every way.
Calling them ringers too, whether that be the LWE's or SS's is truly bizaare. The 6 LWE's built in 2015 were all completely unbuilt in 1963, the VIN numbers were never assigned to any cars built so how can the modern ones be called ringers?! They are continuations, and the same is applied to these 9 XKSS's due to be built.
Those cars were, as mentioned previously, literally blobs of metal on the floor: absolutely written off beyond all recognition from the fire. Let's say those 9 cars had actually been assigned VINs and registered... And imagine instead of stopping the build, Jaguar built another 9 straight away in 1957 ... Do you really think those cars would have been given fresh VINs? Paid to be registered again? I highly doubt it; they'd have been built to the exact spec of the burnt 9 and given the same numbers and all would have been delivered to their prospecting customers. Happy days. All that's happening now in 2016 is that there has been a 60 year gap in the production and I think it's fantastic that they are building them. The attention to detail on the LWE's was mind blowing, I can only imagine it's going to be the same for these.
Calling them ringers too, whether that be the LWE's or SS's is truly bizaare. The 6 LWE's built in 2015 were all completely unbuilt in 1963, the VIN numbers were never assigned to any cars built so how can the modern ones be called ringers?! They are continuations, and the same is applied to these 9 XKSS's due to be built.
Those cars were, as mentioned previously, literally blobs of metal on the floor: absolutely written off beyond all recognition from the fire. Let's say those 9 cars had actually been assigned VINs and registered... And imagine instead of stopping the build, Jaguar built another 9 straight away in 1957 ... Do you really think those cars would have been given fresh VINs? Paid to be registered again? I highly doubt it; they'd have been built to the exact spec of the burnt 9 and given the same numbers and all would have been delivered to their prospecting customers. Happy days. All that's happening now in 2016 is that there has been a 60 year gap in the production and I think it's fantastic that they are building them. The attention to detail on the LWE's was mind blowing, I can only imagine it's going to be the same for these.
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