DVLA vs Liquid Knight
Discussion
davidjpowell said:
I don't know what you have done to get their backs up.
Are there any members of the DVLA-reich also members of Pistonheads? Are they giving me a hard time of it because they don't like being made to look this stubborn, thieving 
jobsworths on the UK's most popular motoring website? Is it a case of "when a pussy gets full of st it's worse than an ahole" Trey Parker/Matt Stone? Just as well I'm a dick eh?
Liquid Knight said:
So if I go to court I'd like as much ammunition as possible to throw at the DVLAs face. If you have been messed about by the DVLA, paid a fine for their mistake or had some other issue then air it here and I will read them out before the court to show the DVLA are as one high court judge described as "unfit for purpose" to the Magestrate in the court if/when I have to present evidence.
I fell into this DVLA trap earlier this year. About a year ago I sold a car to a delighted new owner. We filled in the V5 form for transferring the ownership and physically sent it before he drove off into the sunset … because there's a post box right outside my house. BUT ... I also added onto that same V5 my new postal address as I was moving house 3 days later… Then, 3 months later, the DVLA started harassing me for fines for not telling them about some paperwork which they claimed they had not received and that someone had applied for a new V5 of a car they thought I still owned. I didn’t have proof of postage but both seller and I were happy to go to court over it.
Funny thing was that they issued all the threatening letters to my NEW address ... implying rather strongly that they had indeed received my original V5 … Doh.
However despite phone calls pointing out their cockup, they wouldn’t back down and I became stuck in their legal system. After that point they refused to take on board what I was telling them via letters and phone calls and continued to steamroller the whole mess into court all because I was refusing to pay the fine for apparently not sending in the V5. I knew I was in the right, so I just let them argue and threaten and argue some more until a court date was set and they made noises about £1,000 fines, and similar amounts for court costs yadda yadda. I just let it run and run right up until the day before court.
I then called their hostile legal dept and cited two legal precedents that have happened in the past year (see below) and eventually common sense prevailed. Amazing huh ?
Here's a good summary of two DVLA test cases, both in the past 2 yrs:-
http://www.roadweb.org.uk/dvla-off-road-notificati...
EXTRACT :-
The off-road notification system of the DVLA is in disarray due to administrative chaos and the fact that is not legally enforceable. In fact, two court cases that have recently been settled suggest that the DVLA may be unlawfully acting against cars parked off-road, and does not really have any power over motorists, at least not in the way it thinks that it has.
The first case occurred in October of 2009 in the Clerkenwell District Court, with the DVLA believing that it could get a judgment against James Collins, on the grounds that he did not tell them when he removed his vehicle from the road.
Collins said that he had told them and it was not his fault if they could not find his details and to the surprise of many the judge ruled that the DVLA was in the wrong and Collins was told simply to resend his details to the DVLA.
Collins was able to win his case due to some research that he did in advance that showed the DVLA had the ability to lose internal mail, and then made use of a Freedom of Information request in order to establish that they did not keep track of which communications were sent to which individuals.
The other case was against Duncan Peck who was also a farce, with the case of a lost in Horsham Country Court. The DVLA claimed that he had not received notification, and that Peck had set the information later, but it was too late, and he should have checked after not receiving a formal acknowledgment.
However, the DVLA lost due to the fact they do not have the power to make people call them.
Anyway, I hope this helps !
Carparticus said:
Funny thing was that they issued all the threatening letters to my NEW address ... implying rather strongly that they had indeed received my original V5 … Doh.
That would have been absolutely hilarious to reveal in court."Would the prosecution please explain how they got Mr. Caparticus' new address to fine him for not sending in the V5?"
"Erm... from the V5 m'lud..."
BonzoG said:
Carparticus said:
Funny thing was that they issued all the threatening letters to my NEW address ... implying rather strongly that they had indeed received my original V5 … Doh.
That would have been absolutely hilarious to reveal in court."Would the prosecution please explain how they got Mr. Caparticus' new address to fine him for not sending in the V5?"
"Erm... from the V5 m'lud..."
Just a reminder for those of you who are on board.....
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/event.php?eid=...
...copy and paste the link to other motoring forums you're on and your own facebook profile.
Liquid Knight said:
They would have got the updated address from the first letter he sent to the DVLA.
Just to clarify, I sent my V5 off notifying change of ownership when selling the car, and I also entered my new address on it.Next thing I know is when they wrote to me at my new address telling me that I had NOT informed them of my new address … and also issued a fine for NOT telling them of the change of ownership claiming the V5 had NOT turned up … even though they were using the new address from the V5 which they must have received …
Despite this rather obvious logical flaw, they continued to hound me for months chasing a fine that I refused, in writing, to pay. This grew in size ending up in a court summons for £1,000 and costs on top etc etc. I ignored most of the threats until the day before court. I think some jobsworth looked at the type of car and gambled that it was worth hassling me for a fine thinking I would just cough up, whereas they wasted £1000's of tax payers money bullying me into paying the £40 and ultimately had to back down.
Their arrogance on the phone was equally breathtaking. It was reminiscent of the brilliantly stupid Monty Python sketch where Michael Palin pays £5 for an argument with a man from the
Well worth a few minutes laugh :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY&fea...
Their incompetence might go in your favour sometimes...
One time I sent off a tax disc just before it was due to only have one month left to run; when I heard nothing back after a few weeks I couldn't be arsed ringing them as I knew they would just say I had sent it too late.
I was pleasantly surprised when after more than 2 months I received a cheque from them for 3 months tax
One time I sent off a tax disc just before it was due to only have one month left to run; when I heard nothing back after a few weeks I couldn't be arsed ringing them as I knew they would just say I had sent it too late.
I was pleasantly surprised when after more than 2 months I received a cheque from them for 3 months tax
Only last week they stung me for £35 for not notifying them of the fact that I'd sold a car a few months ago.
I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
Kinky said:
Only last week they stung me for £35 for not notifying them of the fact that I'd sold a car a few months ago.
I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
I've heard this sequence so often now that I believe the last administration used some of its basturd stealthy tax ideology to rig the DVLA system against the motorist and try and put the onus on the car owner to ensure the DVLA receives its paperwork. I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
Some bean counter must have worked out that issuing questionable £40 fines X 1 million used cars sold a year (or whatever) = £40 Million, which is a nice little earner for the treasury... and pays for a lot of MP's expenses etc.
GOLDEN RULE - ALWAYS SEND DVLA PAPERS BY RECORDED DELIVERY OR SIMILAR.
Carparticus said:
Kinky said:
Only last week they stung me for £35 for not notifying them of the fact that I'd sold a car a few months ago.
I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
I've heard this sequence so often now that I believe the last administration used some of its basturd stealthy tax ideology to rig the DVLA system against the motorist and try and put the onus on the car owner to ensure the DVLA receives its paperwork. I'd sent off the completed V5 and thought nothing more of it.
Until I got a letter saying that they were fining me for not telling them I'd sold the car.
I could not be arsed to argue it, for £35. I can't prove I sent the V5 to them; and I did not get a confirmation letter from them - so it's stacked against me.
Some bean counter must have worked out that issuing questionable £40 fines X 1 million used cars sold a year (or whatever) = £40 Million, which is a nice little earner for the treasury... and pays for a lot of MP's expenses etc.
GOLDEN RULE - ALWAYS SEND DVLA PAPERS BY RECORDED DELIVERY OR SIMILAR.
GarryA said:
If you send a V5 to the DVLA they acknowledge it, if you don't get correspondence within 4 weeks then you ring them to let them know / check.
It's on the back of the V5.
Otherwise you get into st like this.
So the instructions on what to do in the It's on the back of the V5.
Otherwise you get into s
t like this. Don't forget the whole system has two lovely organised paper losing organisations in the loop, the DVLA and the Royal Mail, in this day and age you should be able to do the clerical stuff on line, you can Tax your car so why not be able to report a change of address or ownership online? Or even just track the process online?
GarryA said:
And contact them if you have not received conformation in 4 weeks, like it tells you on the logbook although I am hearing that the DVLA are changing it so that if you are a PH member you can skip that bit and take them to court instead.
Interesting, so if someone fines you when yo have complied fully with the law then you just pay up do you?By reading this, you have agreed to wear a chicken suit in the middle of Westferry Circus at noon today. Non compliance means that you need to send me £100, please don't be a hypocrite and fail to send me the money if you don't comply...
So playing devil's advocate here - how would you set up the system?
Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
NorthernBoy said:
I'd insist on recorded delivery or, far better, allow it to be handed in at the post office (I.e. Not posted, actually given to them), with a receipt given.
Recorded delivery isn't adequate evidence either. When you send the DVLA a copy of the reciept they'll just say it "could be for anything send at the time and does not prove postage and/or reciept". As far as the DVLA are conserned you are guilty until proven innocent and still guilty anyway.
Guilty and treated like a criminal even though the DVLA themselves admitted I have commited no criminal offence so they couldn't take me to court. The SORN penalty notice is so similar to a Police issued fixed penalty notice that it can be (and has been by me) interprited as a fine and not the glorified administration charge that it actually is. This is a deliberate action by the DVLA to make people pay up or risk the illusion of getting into further trouble. By making people believe the DVLA has more power than it actually does makes the DVLA no better than the thieving parking administration companies tha DVLA sells our addresses to.
GeraldSmith said:
So playing devil's advocate here - how would you set up the system?
Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
Scrap it completely and start from scratch. The DVLA have had nearly a hundred years to get a system together that works and has failed. It's another quango the country doesn't need.Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
Liquid Knight said:
GeraldSmith said:
So playing devil's advocate here - how would you set up the system?
Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
Scrap it completely and start from scratch. The DVLA have had nearly a hundred years to get a system together that works and has failed. It's another quango the country doesn't need.Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
The problem is that there are only so many options:
1. Scrap licensing entirely
2. Insist on everything being done face to face at an office
3. Do what happens now, send an acknowledgement and rely on people noticing that they didn't get one.
So with a new body or the existing one you are going to have exactly the same problems unless you can think of a different way of doing it.
GarryA said:
And contact them if you have not received conformation in 4 weeks, like it tells you on the logbook although I am hearing that the DVLA are changing it so that if you are a PH member you can skip that bit and take them to court instead.
Is this still going round in circles? Anyone can skip that bit and have a go of it in court, just like Liquid Knight is doing. The DVLA have no backing in law for forcing people to contact them if they f
k things up. If a private company asked you to send something to them, then write to them for confirmation, or they'll fine you, you'd tell them to go whistle for it. Does the DVLA being a government dis-organisation suddenly make you happy to roll over and take it? They've been beaten in court already!
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