RE: Evora S Sports Racer: Intro

[Nohedes]

blueg33 said:

Mind you a new Cayman S manual is 1395kg so only 3 kg lighter than an n/a Evora.

You seem to be quoting EC rather than DIN weights here. 981 Cayman S (manual) is 1,340kgs DIN which I think is the measurement most commonly quoted/used, which means a 58kg advantage to the Cayman.

blueg33 said:

So at a similar price point Lotus have managed a 2 plus 2 that handles better than a Cayman and is a similar weight. That sounds like a result rather than something to be criticised.

The handling point is just subjective. Both fantastic handling cars of course, not sure how many miles you've done in the 981 Cayman S, but I think it must be one of the best handling cars on the road (as is the Evora)?

blueg33 said:

Just specced up a Cayman S to match (as closely as possible) the Evora n/a sports racer package

The Evora Costs £58,375
Tha Cayman S Costs ££ 61,908.00

So £3.5k difference isn't really much, so they are very closely comparable in terms of price and performance.

Not sure what the differences are and I can't really be bothered to repeat the exercise, all I would say is that the more appropriate comparison is with the Cayman GTS - £55,397 OTR including many of the options that you may have added to the S (incl. sports exhaust, sports chrono package, sports seats, alcantara, 20" wheels, PASM etc.) as standard. Not much else you'd need to add really?

blueg33 said:

Evora has the benefit of rear seats, and edge on handling and ride and exclusivity
Cayman has Porsche badge, better ineterior quality (subjective) longer service intervals and an umbrella holder

You've remembered to mention the umbrella holder but forgotten the iconic, bespoke flat-six which uses less fuel, has lower CO2, sounds better (subjective but difficult to deny!), and produces higher peak power (340hp v 280hp) at higher revs (7,400 v 6,400). A little bit one-eyed of you or just forgetful?

blueg33 said:

Both are superb cars, Evora residuals look slightly better over 4 years or so although the curent Cayman is too new for us to be sure.

On this we agree!

[Nohedes]

The Pits said:

I think Porsche's weight claims are a bit fishy, I'd love to see some Caymans and 991s on some scales. 991 is quite a big car now. But 200kg lighter than an alloy tubbed V8 Vantage?



To date most customer Exige V6's that have actually been weighed are coming in under the 1176kg claimed 'unladen mass' figure. I've no idea how Lotus measure this figure but the difference between Porsche's DIN and EU unladen weight figures is 50kg on a Cayman.

I bet the weight piles on with the price as you add extras too.

So your argument is that Porsche are misrepresenting the weight of their cars? Seems fairly unlikely to me as they would surely be found out (they make enough of them).

As for the 991, it really isn't that big. It's less than 11cms longer than a V8 Vantage and is narrower. As for the Cayman, the 981 is almost the same size as the 991 - again the 991 is about 11cms longer but less than 1cm wider than a Cayman, so not too surprising that it's only marginally heavier.

[kambites]

A surprising number of cars, when weighed by independent reviewers, turn out to weigh quite a lot more than the manufacturer's quoted weights. Not sure why, it just seems to be the accepted norm.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Porsche's cars do, but then I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus's do either.


And yes, I'm pretty sure Lotus weigh wet without a driver (presumably DIN?), not EU.

Edited by kambites on Monday 28th April 20:50

[Nohedes]

kambites said:

A surprising number of cars, when weighed by independent reviewers, turn out to weigh quite a lot more than the manufacturer's quoted weights. Not sure why, it just seems to be the accepted norm.

I don't doubt it. I suppose what I find surprising is that some people on this thread only seem to be questioning the Porsche weights! One imagines that if the weights of the cars in question were reversed, then the levels of cynicism would be commensurately reduced!

We've also had someone actually weigh their 981 and it seemed relatively close to quoted weight.

[kambites]

Yeah, no reason to believe Porsche would be any worse or better than Lotus in that regard.

Obviously I've never weighed an Evora, but my Elise was marginally lighter (probably easily within the margin of error of the weigh bridge) of Lotus's quoted figure for the model. That was with a few odds and ends in the boot and about half a tank of fuel.

ETA: I suspect a zero-specced car, they'll both be pretty close to the quoted figures. The only possible difference will be in what "zero spec" comprises; I don't know what's standard and what's optional on each car. Worth Lotus that, for some odd reason, Lotus seem to only quote weights of the four-seater version. I wouldn't be surprised if the two-seater was 30 odd kg lighter.

[Nohedes]

Sorry kambites, just noticed your edit.

Just to add that, at the end of the day, these aren't huge differences in weight!

[kambites]

Indeed. Close enough to make bugger all practical difference on cars that heavy to begin with.

[blueg33]

Nohedes said:

blueg33 said:

Mind you a new Cayman S manual is 1395kg so only 3 kg lighter than an n/a Evora.

You seem to be quoting EC rather than DIN weights here. 981 Cayman S (manual) is 1,340kgs DIN which I think is the measurement most commonly quoted/used, which means a 58kg advantage to the Cayman.

blueg33 said:

So at a similar price point Lotus have managed a 2 plus 2 that handles better than a Cayman and is a similar weight. That sounds like a result rather than something to be criticised.

The handling point is just subjective. Both fantastic handling cars of course, not sure how many miles you've done in the 981 Cayman S, but I think it must be one of the best handling cars on the road (as is the Evora)?

blueg33 said:

Just specced up a Cayman S to match (as closely as possible) the Evora n/a sports racer package

The Evora Costs £58,375
Tha Cayman S Costs ££ 61,908.00

So £3.5k difference isn't really much, so they are very closely comparable in terms of price and performance.

Not sure what the differences are and I can't really be bothered to repeat the exercise, all I would say is that the more appropriate comparison is with the Cayman GTS - £55,397 OTR including many of the options that you may have added to the S (incl. sports exhaust, sports chrono package, sports seats, alcantara, 20" wheels, PASM etc.) as standard. Not much else you'd need to add really?

blueg33 said:

Evora has the benefit of rear seats, and edge on handling and ride and exclusivity
Cayman has Porsche badge, better ineterior quality (subjective) longer service intervals and an umbrella holder

You've remembered to mention the umbrella holder but forgotten the iconic, bespoke flat-six which uses less fuel, has lower CO2, sounds better (subjective but difficult to deny!), and produces higher peak power (340hp v 280hp) at higher revs (7,400 v 6,400). A little bit one-eyed of you or just forgetful?

blueg33 said:

Both are superb cars, Evora residuals look slightly better over 4 years or so although the current Cayman is too new for us to be sure.

On this we agree!

Can't do all the quotes on a Blackberry as I have insufficient patience.

So points are as follows:

Weights came from the same source, if the Cayman is that much lighter and more powerful why is its 0-60 not correspondingly faster?

I have done about 1000 miles in the previous Cayman S and about 500 in the current Cayman S, Of course handling is subjective, but generally Evora is acknowledged to be outstanding, Cayman is also excellent.

It was a GTS I specced up

Fuel consupmtion of both cars is about the same according to the makers, I can get 37-38mpg cruising at 80 in the Evora

I think you need to hear my car (tubular manifolds, sports exhaust) Have you heard an Evora?

Not sure peak revs matters much, my G33 would wipe the floor with both the Cayman and the Evora an the rev limit was at 5500 rpm

Umbrella holder was tongue in cheek

[kambites]

blueg33 said:

Weights came from the same source, if the Cayman is that much lighter and more powerful why is its 0-60 not correspondingly faster?

I'd imagine, because its weight distribution isn't as good (for acceleration). The Evora should have significantly better traction. A 2wd 911 would be a fairer comparison from that point of view.

It'd be interesting to know how their 60-100 times compare.

Edited by kambites on Monday 28th April 21:01

[Nohedes]

blueg33, not sure what you added to the Cayman GTS to get from £56k to £61k, and you had said it was an S not a GTS, but it doesn't really matter.

Re the acceleration point, each 0.1 below 5 seconds must be increasingly hard to achieve I suppose. Cayman GTS is 0-62 in 4.9 (manual) or 4.6 (PDK in Sport+ - 4.8 in normal mode) so pretty quick, but not that much faster in the real world I guess.

My point about the revs is that a high revving NA engine that produces peak power at 7,400rpm and 100hp/litre is, to me, more enjoyable than a lower revving and/or forced induction engine. I think a few years from now, we'll be looking back at engines like the one in the Cayman very wistfully!

[kambites]

I think years from now (and probably not very many of them, at that) we'll be looking at either engine wistfully because everything will be turbocharged.

The Evora S is hardly a low-revving engine, peak power comes at 7000rpm.

[Nohedes]

I fear you are right about the turbocharging

Yes, I see the Evora S revs higher, but we were talking about the Evora NA v Cayman GTS

Personally I prefer NA to turbocharged/supercharged engines, but obviously this is a personal thing.

[kambites]

I can't stand turbochargers, but I can't honestly tell the difference between naturally aspirated and supercharged lumps (unless you can hear the supercharger).

[blueg33]

G33 with its 5500 rev limit was more enjoyable than Cayman or Evora to drive.

But bloody horrible in the wet

[Frimley111R]

Do you think anyone will ever review the Evora without crapping on about Porsche?

[kambites]

Frimley111R said:

Do you think anyone will ever review the Evora without crapping on about Porsche?

It would make it a thoroughly pointless review, IMO. Things like "good" and "bad" in isolation are meaningless; by far the best way to describe a car is by comparing it to the class leader, because that's what people are most likely to have experience of for the sake of comparison.

Having said that, I think comparing it to the Cayman is a bit daft because to my mind it's a 911 competitor.

[SpudLink]

Perhaps the problem is people (journalists) expected cars to fit into an existing 'class'. Porsche is considered the definition of the sports car classes. By not being an exact fit into either the Caymen or (current) 911 class of car, the Evora considered to have failed to match either.
It seems people have difficulty accepting it on its own terms.

[kambites]

Reviews which purely consider a car on its own terms without comparing it to other cars are utterly useless because they give the reader no point of reference; a reviewer can say "the car has good brakes" but that does't tell you anything if you don't know whether they're comparing them to an F1 car of a Reliant Robin.

I couldn't care less whether they reach a conclusion about which is "better" when comparing two cars, in many ways I think it's better not to, but the comparison does need to be made IMO and I can't think of a better point of reference for the Evora than the current Porsche range.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 29th April 10:57

[otolith]

It's a fair point that cars which are not trying to be exactly the same kind of thing as whatever the scribblers consider to be the class leader tend not to be judged on their own terms.

[C43]

Ha ha, drive the Lotus over the roads it was created for and guess what, it delivers.

Given the photos in this last report the roads the Lotus was taken over were the ones I know very well, in fact they are my drive home from work if I want to take a detour and enjoy myself, something I find myself doing a lot!

C43